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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ace of Shadows" data-source="post: 8241687" data-attributes="member: 6911154">Yes I saw some guys talking here on the internet saying they played an alternate way back in the day and then go on to say that everyone I knew were doing it all wrong apparently deliberately before 2E - so I came to say that it never occurred to me or anyone I knew to read the rule the way you do then and the insinuation of deliberate cheating was rubbish. I did re-read the rule now to see what you were talking about and saw then how it was 'possible' for the rule to 'interpreted' the way you do - whilst I could see your argument and said so I also said it looked to me to be incongruous and counter-intuitive and thus contrived way to read the rule - so I don't agree with you that your reading is a clear cut on and certainly don't agree with your suggestion that anyone else doing it in what I would view as intuitive way and you acknowledge was widespread, is deliberately cheating. That's taking it way too far, in my book anyway. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how many times you read the rules, any of them, because they never explicitly say, you can also die at -1 and -4 anywhere and in game design you really need to explicitly spell out such an obscure death point like that and give a rationale for its arbitrary nature, if you genuinely intend such a thing and want it to become intuitive to players and especially if you are at the same time taking the time to explicitly say you can die at 0 or -10. I've only ever played 'die at 0' or 'die at -10 '- I actually don't care which it is although I can see the no unconscious state abstract is very simplistic. I was reading some Gygax Q&As recently, I believe here, and I seem to recall someone asking Gary about death door rules and how he played them. I didn't appreciate the potential significance of the discussion until I saw this thread so I thought I might point you in that direction to check if I'm right it came up. I don't recall him saying anything about folk dying at -1 or -4 when he explain how he played but due to my lack of interest in the subject at the time as no-one was suggesting it was a deliberate cheat to treat deaths door as -10, I could have missed it. Clearly this is a burning issue for you so did you ever raise it with him direct whilst he was still here answering questions about the game? I expect [USER=7015759]@Rob Kuntz[/USER] might recall how Gary approached it. Maybe he can clear it up for everyone.</blockquote>

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