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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6066415" data-attributes="member: 6669384">As an update of sorts:  I've been reviewing the skill rules for PF, compared to 3.5.Both systems seem to grant the same number of skill points per level, on an apples to apples basis (i.e. fighters get 2 + Int bonus per level in both systems, Rogues get 8+Int, Rangers get 6+, etc.).  3.5 gives that a 4x multiplier at 1st level that PF doesn't, so PF does get fewer skills.  Or so it seems.PF, however, gives a +3 bonus to every class skill that a person trains in, and appears to have eliminated the "cross class" rule that makes you pay double per point in 3.*.3.* caps the skill points you can put in any one skill to your character level +3, while PF caps it at the character level.  That free "+3" seems to be important to remember at this point however.  I'll show why in a bit.PF seems to have eliminated Synergy bonuses though, limiting the effective results a bit.Let's consider a 2nd level Fighter in each system.  Presume an Int of 12.3e starts with 12 skill points.  PF starts with 3.  Add three more to each for the 2nd level.Fighter buys common Fighter skills like Climb, Swim and Ride.If the 3e maxes out all three at 1st level, he ends up with Ability +4 in all three.  If the PF fighter maxes out all three at 1st level, he also ends up with Ability +4 in all three.Now at 2nd level they both decide to try adding Survival and Jump.Jump is now part of Acrobatics in PF, and is not "in class" for that character, so he misses out on that +3 bonus.  Both will gain the same, point for point, in that arena.  Except that the PF fighter gets all the other benefits of Acrobatics that the 3e fighter doesn't.Survival is "in class" for both, so if they each spent two on "Jump", they each have one left for Survival.  3e gets Wis + 1 on Survival checks.  PF gets Wis +4 on Survival checks, due to that +3 bonus.The best the 3e can do from here out is to match the PF.  In some cases 3e will have to pay double for a skill that PF pays one for, and in some cases PF will get that +3 bonus.  In some cases, 3e will end up paying 4 to 1, in cases like Spot and Listen (both cross class for Fighters), but which got combined in PF.  PF pays 1 for a +1 in Observation and 3e pays 4 for a comparable +1 in the two skills Spot and Listen.  (Same happens with Hide/Move Silent v Stealth).So the x4 multiplier at 1st seems to evaporate almost at once, giving no real advantage in this build.  What it does do is give the 3e fighter the option of spreading out more, getting a +1 or +2 in more skills instead of maxing out the few. That slight tactical edge disappears with time, as the PF character continues to get +3 bonuses in any trained class skill, and the 3e pays double for any others.In this example, the idea that PF "gets fewer skills" seems to be an illusion over all.  It looks like it's true, but functionally it really isn't.We could pick another class and run the comparison again, but when the dust settles we'll probably see comparable results:  Early flexibility advantage for 3e, eventual impact of Synergy bonuses, but a functional skill point edge for the PF character that 3e won't ever overcome.So yeah, even in this area, PF is a power up from 3e.</blockquote>

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