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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7911196" data-attributes="member: 6669384">If you know me at all you know I end up telling stories, so...I was running an adventure at a convention, and the lead up was that there was an Autumn festival and the party was there.&nbsp; There were &quot;games&quot; (archery, horse races, javelin etc.) and a gathering of craftsmen.One of the players, whose character was a bit over the top, decided that she was going to teach the Dwarven smiths how to make a Katana.Since this was the role-playing preface to the full adventure, I played along.&nbsp; Since the festival was a week long, her goal wasn't impossible.&nbsp; She wouldn't be able to finish it in a week, but...It turned out that her characyer had a total bonus for Craft - Weaponsmith of +3.&nbsp; Since, according to her, the Katana is always Master worked, she'd need to be able to get a 20 result.&nbsp; She was shocked when she found that the Dwarven smiths didn't consider a Master.&nbsp; She was high level, but had put very few points in that skill.We ran the math on her Katana, which the books say is treated as a Masterworked Bastard Sword, so the price is over 300.While the DC for making it Masterworked (DC 20) is a problem for someone with +3 in the skull, the basic Craft DC of 15 is the real issue:&nbsp; If she makes the basic roll, she'll make 22.5 gp worth of progress each week, she'll be at it for several months.&nbsp; She couldn't believe that.My general take is that someone needs to have a total bonus of +10 to even be considered a Journeyman:&nbsp; They can Take 10 for most tasks, since they can't fail by more than 5.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; To be a Master I'm thinking you need a +15, so you can't fail by more than 5.Of course that +15 might include circumstance bonuses like a well prepared shop, work assistants etc, so the NPC can still be below 10th level.I guess this is where the tangent comes back to the original topic, which was what was wrong, or right, about the 3E skill system.In the non-granular version used in later editions, the high level character would have gotten to be a better smith without ever taking any further training or practice with the craft.&nbsp; All they had to do was kill things.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 7911196, member: 6669384"] If you know me at all you know I end up telling stories, so... I was running an adventure at a convention, and the lead up was that there was an Autumn festival and the party was there. There were "games" (archery, horse races, javelin etc.) and a gathering of craftsmen. One of the players, whose character was a bit over the top, decided that she was going to teach the Dwarven smiths how to make a Katana. Since this was the role-playing preface to the full adventure, I played along. Since the festival was a week long, her goal wasn't impossible. She wouldn't be able to finish it in a week, but... It turned out that her characyer had a total bonus for Craft - Weaponsmith of +3. Since, according to her, the Katana is always Master worked, she'd need to be able to get a 20 result. She was shocked when she found that the Dwarven smiths didn't consider a Master. She was high level, but had put very few points in that skill. We ran the math on her Katana, which the books say is treated as a Masterworked Bastard Sword, so the price is over 300. While the DC for making it Masterworked (DC 20) is a problem for someone with +3 in the skull, the basic Craft DC of 15 is the real issue: If she makes the basic roll, she'll make 22.5 gp worth of progress each week, she'll be at it for several months. She couldn't believe that. My general take is that someone needs to have a total bonus of +10 to even be considered a Journeyman: They can Take 10 for most tasks, since they can't fail by more than 5. To be a Master I'm thinking you need a +15, so you can't fail by more than 5. Of course that +15 might include circumstance bonuses like a well prepared shop, work assistants etc, so the NPC can still be below 10th level. I guess this is where the tangent comes back to the original topic, which was what was wrong, or right, about the 3E skill system. In the non-granular version used in later editions, the high level character would have gotten to be a better smith without ever taking any further training or practice with the craft. All they had to do was kill things. [/QUOTE]

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