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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The 4E combat poll: grind and more!
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5201866" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>Here's a suggestion for that.</p><p></p><p>Before our PCs got to Paragon levels, I implemented a "Paragon creatures do 1die more damage, Epic do 2 dice more damage house rule" because I did not think the encounters were dangerous enough (which just happens to be #3 currently on this poll). It made it more dangerous, but it also wasn't as much fun for the players because they were often getting the snot kicked out of them.</p><p></p><p>So, I dropped that house rule.</p><p></p><p>This last weekend at level 16, I re-implemented that house rule along with a house rule that monsters have 75% of their normal hit points.</p><p></p><p>We had a N+1+ encounter (Assault on Nightwyrm Forest T2, 10,500 XP for 6 16th level PCs) that took 3 rounds. We had a N+4 encounter (T4, 16,000 XP for 6 16th level PCs plus my minions roll dice for damage, so the epic level minions in that encounter were averaging 24 points of damage) that took 5 rounds (note: we started a new initiative system that keeps track of rounds automatically, so we now know exactly how long an encounter takes round-wise).</p><p></p><p>The players loved it. Even with the second encounter with 17 creatures on the board, the encounter was fast paced, threatening, and quick.</p><p></p><p>We would have never dreamed of having a 5 round N+4 encounter with 17 creatures ever before that took less than an hour and a half to play. Such an encounter would previously have taken at least 2.5 hours because of ~3 additional rounds of pulling out At Will powers and slogging out the finish. In 5 rounds with a tough encounter, most of the PCs never even used At Will powers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Your group should consider similar house rules. Making the enemies offensively stronger and hit point weaker makes a big difference on the encounters. It addresses both "Took less real time to play out" which is currently the #1 item on this poll and "Was more dangerous for the PCs" which is currently the #3 item on this poll.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Btw, the N+4 encounter here knocked two out of six PCs unconscious. Previous to this, we had only had one unconscious PC in the last 3 levels of playing (and that one was due to a mega-explosion that did 60 points of damage that I added to one of the Revenge of the Giants major encounters, otherwise, the swordmage wouldn't have gone unconscious in that encounter either). N+4 encounters should be threatening enough to knock one or two PCs unconscious. Without these types of house rules, that almost never happens in Paragon.</p><p></p><p>But, the players didn't care too much that two PCs went down. They were having fun laying the smackdown on monsters where it didn't take 3 or 4 rounds to take down the first monster. And it wasn't the minions that they were taking out first, the minions were epic level foes that were hard to hit and the players weren't rolling well against them, the non-minions were the ones they smacked down first for the most part.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5201866, member: 2011"] Here's a suggestion for that. Before our PCs got to Paragon levels, I implemented a "Paragon creatures do 1die more damage, Epic do 2 dice more damage house rule" because I did not think the encounters were dangerous enough (which just happens to be #3 currently on this poll). It made it more dangerous, but it also wasn't as much fun for the players because they were often getting the snot kicked out of them. So, I dropped that house rule. This last weekend at level 16, I re-implemented that house rule along with a house rule that monsters have 75% of their normal hit points. We had a N+1+ encounter (Assault on Nightwyrm Forest T2, 10,500 XP for 6 16th level PCs) that took 3 rounds. We had a N+4 encounter (T4, 16,000 XP for 6 16th level PCs plus my minions roll dice for damage, so the epic level minions in that encounter were averaging 24 points of damage) that took 5 rounds (note: we started a new initiative system that keeps track of rounds automatically, so we now know exactly how long an encounter takes round-wise). The players loved it. Even with the second encounter with 17 creatures on the board, the encounter was fast paced, threatening, and quick. We would have never dreamed of having a 5 round N+4 encounter with 17 creatures ever before that took less than an hour and a half to play. Such an encounter would previously have taken at least 2.5 hours because of ~3 additional rounds of pulling out At Will powers and slogging out the finish. In 5 rounds with a tough encounter, most of the PCs never even used At Will powers. Your group should consider similar house rules. Making the enemies offensively stronger and hit point weaker makes a big difference on the encounters. It addresses both "Took less real time to play out" which is currently the #1 item on this poll and "Was more dangerous for the PCs" which is currently the #3 item on this poll. Btw, the N+4 encounter here knocked two out of six PCs unconscious. Previous to this, we had only had one unconscious PC in the last 3 levels of playing (and that one was due to a mega-explosion that did 60 points of damage that I added to one of the Revenge of the Giants major encounters, otherwise, the swordmage wouldn't have gone unconscious in that encounter either). N+4 encounters should be threatening enough to knock one or two PCs unconscious. Without these types of house rules, that almost never happens in Paragon. But, the players didn't care too much that two PCs went down. They were having fun laying the smackdown on monsters where it didn't take 3 or 4 rounds to take down the first monster. And it wasn't the minions that they were taking out first, the minions were epic level foes that were hard to hit and the players weren't rolling well against them, the non-minions were the ones they smacked down first for the most part. [/QUOTE]
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