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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr_Ruminahui" data-source="post: 5217770" data-attributes="member: 81104">Its worth noting that some DMs/players problem with minions isn't so much how minions play tactically, but a dislike on having one monster take 5 hits to go down, and then his buddy, whose pretty much exactly the same, dies from stubbing his toe. I know from my previous discussions with KarinsDad that the above offers a significant foundation to his dislike of minions in 4e. Which is fair enough... different people like/dislike different aspects of the game, and as the DarkSun discussion evidenced, different things cause different people different issues - some people find the minion mechanic hinders their imersion in the game, while others don't. And if it does hinder your immersion, chances are it is also something that you consider "not fun", as immersion and enjoyment usually have a close link Myself, I like minions, both as a player and as a DM. As a player, I played levels 1-4 in a group whose only AoE was in the form of 2 dailies (Rogue's Blinding Barrage and my Warlock's Armour of Agathys). Even so, minions were fun - it was a relief when we could FINALLY drop something, and its basically the only way my Warlock could get her curse benefit. My Warlock is now a Sorceror, and I still find minions fun to come across - though, less so now that my GM has decided to only field archer minions, as "we kill melee minions too easily" - to me, that feels gamist, and makes minions a nuissance that you essentially have to hunt down and kill one-at-a-time. As a DM, I like having a lot of monsters on the board - for me, an encounter with 4 PCs and 4 monsters had better be a boss fight, otherwise its just dull. Preferably, I like having about twice as many monsters as PCs, and having minions really helps me do that (as does using lower level monsters and n+2 or higher xp budgets). One thing I do make sure to do (as a result of my experiences as a PC) is use is a mix of melee and ranged minions - both in general and, as is feasible, within a given encounter. For me, being heroic means either 1) fighting big nasty monsters; or 2) fighting hordes of lesser monsters. For me, my sense of immersion cries foul when you attack the bandit camp or goblin horde and fight 5 guys here, and 5 more guys 5 minutes away. I mean, come on, if its only a dozen goblins, why doesn't the town guard deal with them? That said, if its clearing out 30 or 40 goblins (or more)... that's a job for heroes. And minions are the only way to feasibly way to get those numbers without either a) inventing some reason why you only fight them in batches of 5 at a time and b) inventing some reason why you get a 5 minute rest between fights. And personally, that to me feels too much akin to the old Hercules cartoon where the badguys would all line up so that Hercules fought them one at a time. So, as I said, different things bug different people, and for the things that bug me, minions are a solution, not a cause.</blockquote>

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