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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3850105" data-attributes="member: 40961">But the &quot;trading up&quot; feature is actually a bug.&nbsp; Look at how many Desert Wind maneuvers there are which grant you +SOMETHING fire damage on all attacks for one round.&nbsp; If you 1) let the maneuvers scale, and 2) let the same maneuver be chosen more than once, you wouldn't need to have multiple maneuvers which do exactly the same thing except with different amounts of damage.&nbsp; Trading up, when used to upgrade between abilities identical in all ways except damage, chews up one of your new maneuvers gained, and does nothing for you except give you permission to keep using a maneuver you already have.In the meantime, any spell or maneuver without a cognate &quot;trade up&quot; power becomes useless.&nbsp; Consider the maneuver Dazing Strike.&nbsp; Its a level 5 maneuver, with a saving throw.&nbsp; Its also a maneuver which would still be good at level 20, IF the saving throw scaled.&nbsp; But it doesn't, so its not.&nbsp; Which is kind of lame, if you stop and think about it.&nbsp; It denies players a balanced, useful power due to a technicality of the design system.The closer a mage's per encounter abilities resemble Tome of Battle maneuvers, the less reason not to have scaling DCs.There's also another perspective.&nbsp; The math one.&nbsp; Apparently casters will roll attacks now.&nbsp; Presumably this will be 1d20+SOMETHING.&nbsp; What do you think fills in the &quot;something?&quot;&nbsp; It could be Spell Level + Casting Stat + Implement Bonus.&nbsp; That's one way to do it.&nbsp; That has some advantages going for it, such as simplicity.But there are other ways.&nbsp; You could do Caster Level + Casting Stat + Implement Bonus.&nbsp; This gives you the equivalent of a magical BAB, and makes scaling DCs built into the system.&nbsp; There are probably other equations you could use.As for tracking the power level, that can be done in either system, you just do it differently.&nbsp; Really, this isn't any different from giving spellcasters the spell like ability DC progression in 3e.&nbsp; There are characters who have that, and they balance just fine.&nbsp; Warlocks have their most powerful ability function in that manner, and they're usually viewed as pretty balanced.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3850105, member: 40961"] But the "trading up" feature is actually a bug. Look at how many Desert Wind maneuvers there are which grant you +SOMETHING fire damage on all attacks for one round. If you 1) let the maneuvers scale, and 2) let the same maneuver be chosen more than once, you wouldn't need to have multiple maneuvers which do exactly the same thing except with different amounts of damage. Trading up, when used to upgrade between abilities identical in all ways except damage, chews up one of your new maneuvers gained, and does nothing for you except give you permission to keep using a maneuver you already have. In the meantime, any spell or maneuver without a cognate "trade up" power becomes useless. Consider the maneuver Dazing Strike. Its a level 5 maneuver, with a saving throw. Its also a maneuver which would still be good at level 20, IF the saving throw scaled. But it doesn't, so its not. Which is kind of lame, if you stop and think about it. It denies players a balanced, useful power due to a technicality of the design system. The closer a mage's per encounter abilities resemble Tome of Battle maneuvers, the less reason not to have scaling DCs. There's also another perspective. The math one. Apparently casters will roll attacks now. Presumably this will be 1d20+SOMETHING. What do you think fills in the "something?" It could be Spell Level + Casting Stat + Implement Bonus. That's one way to do it. That has some advantages going for it, such as simplicity. But there are other ways. You could do Caster Level + Casting Stat + Implement Bonus. This gives you the equivalent of a magical BAB, and makes scaling DCs built into the system. There are probably other equations you could use. As for tracking the power level, that can be done in either system, you just do it differently. Really, this isn't any different from giving spellcasters the spell like ability DC progression in 3e. There are characters who have that, and they balance just fine. Warlocks have their most powerful ability function in that manner, and they're usually viewed as pretty balanced. [/QUOTE]

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