Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The 4E We Didnt Get.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Edgar Ironpelt" data-source="post: 9494582" data-attributes="member: 32075"><p>Back in the 3.0/3.5 days I wrote an essay listing the things I loved, things I hated, and things I had mixed feelings about. Posted here: <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/retro-cloning-d-d-3-0.700203/post-9152781" target="_blank">D&D 3E/3.5 - Retro-cloning D&D 3.0</a></p><p></p><p>And here are some additional issues I have, despite 3.5e still being my preferred D&D version</p><p></p><p>Issue: The exacerbation of the Linear Fighters; Quadratic Wizards" problem, due to "double power ever two levels" power scale. 3.5 purports to handle this issue by handing out loads of magic items, but I find this unsatisfactory. </p><p></p><p>Issue: You are always someone's mook. My view is that PCs beyond 4th or 5th level and the equivalent non-mook NPCs and monsters should be basically immune to one shot kills from anything short of a literally Epic opponent. But the "double power every two levels" power scale means that a 11th level party is just as screwed by a CR 18 encounter as a 1st level party is by a CR 8 encounter - mostly because of the total power of MORE MAGIC. </p><p></p><p>Issue: The expectation of generous increases in ability scores while leveling up, along with an expectation of low-level PCs having relatively low ability scores. </p><p></p><p>Issue: High Level Numbers Divergence. I don't mind high level characters having big numbers; I blow raspberries in the general direction of "bounded accuracy." I do mind when high level characters have big differences in their big numbers, especially when those big differences cut in the wrong direction. E.g. when the differences between the big saving-throw numbers and the big spell DCs diverge in the wrong direction. </p><p></p><p>Issue: Armor Class starvation. This is special case of the High Level Numbers Divergence issue, made worse by being a deliberate design decision. I see monsters being handed Natural Armor with a free hand, especially at higher hit dice, I see three or four of the "Big Six" must-have magic items being AC boosters, and I conclude that PCs don't get enough AC for player fun. </p><p></p><p>Issue: Incentives to "Christmas Tree." The cost structure of magic items is one driver of the PCs going Christmas Tree with their items, with good magic items (+2 or +3 weapons/armor, or wondrous equivalents) costing MUCH more than lesser, +1 equivalent items. Another driver is the need for certain items as character survival and player fun imperatives. </p><p></p><p>Issue: Save or suck looms larger at higher levels. This is a subset of the "you are always someone's mook" issue, made even worse by the divergence of save bonuses vs save DCs against higher level effects. </p><p></p><p>Issue: Disagreements over the place of skills in the game. Me, I <em>love</em> skills, and was really happy when 3.x showed up with a skill system that was actually halfway decent. I just wanted to streamline it a bit and fix a few issues. But one trouble is that the designers seemed to have mixed ideas about what skills were for and how they ought to work. Another trouble is that many GMs and players want to "fix" the skill system by nerfing it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Edgar Ironpelt, post: 9494582, member: 32075"] Back in the 3.0/3.5 days I wrote an essay listing the things I loved, things I hated, and things I had mixed feelings about. Posted here: [URL="https://www.enworld.org/threads/retro-cloning-d-d-3-0.700203/post-9152781"]D&D 3E/3.5 - Retro-cloning D&D 3.0[/URL] And here are some additional issues I have, despite 3.5e still being my preferred D&D version Issue: The exacerbation of the Linear Fighters; Quadratic Wizards" problem, due to "double power ever two levels" power scale. 3.5 purports to handle this issue by handing out loads of magic items, but I find this unsatisfactory. Issue: You are always someone's mook. My view is that PCs beyond 4th or 5th level and the equivalent non-mook NPCs and monsters should be basically immune to one shot kills from anything short of a literally Epic opponent. But the "double power every two levels" power scale means that a 11th level party is just as screwed by a CR 18 encounter as a 1st level party is by a CR 8 encounter - mostly because of the total power of MORE MAGIC. Issue: The expectation of generous increases in ability scores while leveling up, along with an expectation of low-level PCs having relatively low ability scores. Issue: High Level Numbers Divergence. I don't mind high level characters having big numbers; I blow raspberries in the general direction of "bounded accuracy." I do mind when high level characters have big differences in their big numbers, especially when those big differences cut in the wrong direction. E.g. when the differences between the big saving-throw numbers and the big spell DCs diverge in the wrong direction. Issue: Armor Class starvation. This is special case of the High Level Numbers Divergence issue, made worse by being a deliberate design decision. I see monsters being handed Natural Armor with a free hand, especially at higher hit dice, I see three or four of the "Big Six" must-have magic items being AC boosters, and I conclude that PCs don't get enough AC for player fun. Issue: Incentives to "Christmas Tree." The cost structure of magic items is one driver of the PCs going Christmas Tree with their items, with good magic items (+2 or +3 weapons/armor, or wondrous equivalents) costing MUCH more than lesser, +1 equivalent items. Another driver is the need for certain items as character survival and player fun imperatives. Issue: Save or suck looms larger at higher levels. This is a subset of the "you are always someone's mook" issue, made even worse by the divergence of save bonuses vs save DCs against higher level effects. Issue: Disagreements over the place of skills in the game. Me, I [I]love[/I] skills, and was really happy when 3.x showed up with a skill system that was actually halfway decent. I just wanted to streamline it a bit and fix a few issues. But one trouble is that the designers seemed to have mixed ideas about what skills were for and how they ought to work. Another trouble is that many GMs and players want to "fix" the skill system by nerfing it. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The 4E We Didnt Get.
Top