Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The abandoned core monsters of D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="JEB" data-source="post: 9301932" data-attributes="member: 10148"><p>Last stop: 4e.</p><p></p><p><strong>Monster Manual</strong></p><p>Another long list here!</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Balhannoth</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Banshrae</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battlebriar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Berbalang</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boneclaw</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eidolon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Foulspawn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Godforged colossus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kruthik</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lamia (4e flavor)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Larva mage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Quickling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rot harbinger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadar-kai</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadowraven swarm</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skull lord</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorrowsworn (4e flavor)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swordwing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warforged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abominations: astral stalker, atropal, blood fiend, and phane.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Behemoths (totally not dinosaurs): bloodspike and macetail.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cult of Orcus: crimson acolyte, deathpriest of Orcus, deathpriest hierophant, Doresain.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dark ones (darklings): dark creeper, dark stalker</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Demons: evistro (carnage demon) and immolith.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Devourers: soulspike and viscera.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dracoliches: blackfire and runescribed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dragonspawn: blackspawn gloomweb, bluespawn godslayer, and redspawn firebelcher.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drakes: needlefang drake swarm, and spiretop.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elementals: earthwind ravager, firelasher, rockfire dreadnought, and thunderblast cyclone.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ghosts: phantom warrior and trap haunt.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Giants: death giant, death titan, and storm titan.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gibbering beasts: abomination and orb.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hags: death and howling.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Homunculi: iron cobra and iron defender.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hydras: fen, mordant, and primordial.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magma beasts: brute, claw, hurler, and strider.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shifters: longtooth and razorclaw.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trolls: fell and war.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wights: battle, deathlock, and slaughter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yuan-ti: anathema and snaketongue cultist.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Zombies: chillborn, corruption corpse, gravehound, hulk, rotter, and rotwing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Aboleth servitor</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battle guardian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beholder eye of flame</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Black slaad</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bloodfire harpy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boneshard skeleton</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cacklefiend hyena</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chuul juggernaut</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dusk unicorn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elder purple worm</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fell wyvern</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Feygrove choker</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firebred hell hound</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Giant mummy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Great flameskull</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greater helmed horror</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Guulvorg (worg)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hippogriff dreadmount</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Horde ghoul</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lich vestige</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Marut blademaster</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oni night haunt</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Primordial naga</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rimefire griffon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadow hulk (umber hulk)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stirge swarm</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Storm gorgon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stormrage shambler (shambling mound)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sword wraith</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thunderfury boar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thunderhawk (roc)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vine horror spellfiend</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Voidsoul specter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">War devil</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild hunt hound</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bats: fire and shadowhunter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beetles: rot scarab swarm and tangler.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Crocodiles: feymire and visejaw.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Panthers: fey and spectral.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scorpions: hellstinger and stormclaw.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Snakes: flame and shadow.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spiders: bloodweb spider swarm, and demonweb terror.</li> </ul><p></p><p>There are a <em>lot</em> of variants of the core monsters here, as pointed out by [USER=2209]@Voadam[/USER] - probably more than in any other edition. I'm not sure about any other particular pattern to these additions, but I'm open to suggestions!</p><p></p><p><strong>Monster Vault</strong></p><p>Despite being a slimmer and more "iconic" listing than the original 4e MM, there are still a good number of one-offs:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Archons (4e): earth and water.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Basilisks: abyssal, mesmeric-eye, and wilt-eye.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dracoliches: deathbringer and doomlord.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drakes: ambush and bloodseeker.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Liches: necromancer, remnant, and soulreaver.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mummies: moldering, royal, and tomb guardian.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ropers: cave, crag, and impaling.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rust monsters: gluttonous, and young rust monster swarm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stirges: death husk, suckerling, and suckerling swarm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Treants: bramblewood and grove guardian.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trolls: battle troll, bladerager troll, and ghost troll render.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Umber hulks: bewilderer, deep hulk, and tunneler.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wraiths: figment and sovereign.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Zombies: flesh-crazed, grasping, and hulking.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abyssal eviscerator (demon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Charnel otyugh</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frost titan (giant)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Human transmuter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Poisonscale lizardfolk</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ravenous ghoul</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rocktempest gargoyle</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Savage displacer beast</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skeletal legionary</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vampire night witch</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Venom-maw hydra</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">War hyena</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wind-claw owlbear</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bear and horse (generic versions that don't neatly correspond to any other edition's take)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spiders: cave and doomspinner.</li> </ul><p></p><p>The main difference seems to be that while the 4e MM has some lesser-known and unique monsters, the MV is strictly about variants of classic monsters. Not sure if there's any particular intent to the variants chosen here vs. the ones in the MM.</p><p></p><p><strong>4e overall</strong></p><p>These were in both the Monster Manual and the Monster Vault, but not core in other editions:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dragonborn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eladrin (elf flavor)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Angels: of battle, protection, valor, and vengeance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Archons (4e): fire and ice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drakes: guard, rage, and spitting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Giants: earth titan and fire titan.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skeletons: blazing, decrepit, and skeletal tomb guardian.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Abyssal ghoul</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blackroot treant</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blackscale lizardfolk</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bog hag</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Deathjump spider</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dire bulette</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dire stirge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enormous carrion crawler</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Legion devil (merregon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mad wraith</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Medusa (male a la 4e)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nabassu gargoyle</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Venom-eye basilisk</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Winterclaw owlbear</li> </ul><p></p><p>This block deserves some extra attention, because while the tones of the two core monsters books are different - major overhaul vs. decidedly retro - these 30 or so remained in both. That suggests the designers were very attached to having them in the game, and so probably say something about the 4e design philosophy. Not sure what, though!</p><p></p><p>Why didn't any of these carry forward? The pithy, cynical answer is because 5e was trying to win back lapsed fans, and that meant throwing 4e innovations under the bus. I don't know that it's so simple, though, because some new-to-core 4e creatures did carry forward to the 5e MM, like flameskulls and helmed horrors. Ditto a few minor variants that I didn't call out, like the orc eye of Gruumsh (MM) or the gnoll fang of Yeenoghu (MV). But I suppose it wasn't that many, in the grand scheme...</p><p></p><p>So what do you all think of these 4e refugees? Any you want to see return? (The immolith is one I think is pretty neat. And I'm glad the skull lord returned in MTOF...)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JEB, post: 9301932, member: 10148"] Last stop: 4e. [B]Monster Manual[/B] Another long list here! [LIST] [*]Balhannoth [*]Banshrae [*]Battlebriar [*]Berbalang [*]Boneclaw [*]Eidolon [*]Foulspawn [*]Godforged colossus [*]Kruthik [*]Lamia (4e flavor) [*]Larva mage [*]Quickling [*]Rot harbinger [*]Shadar-kai [*]Shadowraven swarm [*]Skull lord [*]Sorrowsworn (4e flavor) [*]Swordwing [*]Warforged [*]Abominations: astral stalker, atropal, blood fiend, and phane. [*]Behemoths (totally not dinosaurs): bloodspike and macetail. [*]Cult of Orcus: crimson acolyte, deathpriest of Orcus, deathpriest hierophant, Doresain. [*]Dark ones (darklings): dark creeper, dark stalker [*]Demons: evistro (carnage demon) and immolith. [*]Devourers: soulspike and viscera. [*]Dracoliches: blackfire and runescribed. [*]Dragonspawn: blackspawn gloomweb, bluespawn godslayer, and redspawn firebelcher. [*]Drakes: needlefang drake swarm, and spiretop. [*]Elementals: earthwind ravager, firelasher, rockfire dreadnought, and thunderblast cyclone. [*]Ghosts: phantom warrior and trap haunt. [*]Giants: death giant, death titan, and storm titan. [*]Gibbering beasts: abomination and orb. [*]Hags: death and howling. [*]Homunculi: iron cobra and iron defender. [*]Hydras: fen, mordant, and primordial. [*]Magma beasts: brute, claw, hurler, and strider. [*]Shifters: longtooth and razorclaw. [*]Trolls: fell and war. [*]Wights: battle, deathlock, and slaughter. [*]Yuan-ti: anathema and snaketongue cultist. [*]Zombies: chillborn, corruption corpse, gravehound, hulk, rotter, and rotwing. [*]Aboleth servitor [*]Battle guardian [*]Beholder eye of flame [*]Black slaad [*]Bloodfire harpy [*]Boneshard skeleton [*]Cacklefiend hyena [*]Chuul juggernaut [*]Dusk unicorn [*]Elder purple worm [*]Fell wyvern [*]Feygrove choker [*]Firebred hell hound [*]Giant mummy [*]Great flameskull [*]Greater helmed horror [*]Guulvorg (worg) [*]Hippogriff dreadmount [*]Horde ghoul [*]Lich vestige [*]Marut blademaster [*]Oni night haunt [*]Primordial naga [*]Rimefire griffon [*]Shadow hulk (umber hulk) [*]Stirge swarm [*]Storm gorgon [*]Stormrage shambler (shambling mound) [*]Sword wraith [*]Thunderfury boar [*]Thunderhawk (roc) [*]Vine horror spellfiend [*]Voidsoul specter [*]War devil [*]Wild hunt hound [*]Bats: fire and shadowhunter. [*]Beetles: rot scarab swarm and tangler. [*]Crocodiles: feymire and visejaw. [*]Panthers: fey and spectral. [*]Scorpions: hellstinger and stormclaw. [*]Snakes: flame and shadow. [*]Spiders: bloodweb spider swarm, and demonweb terror. [/LIST] There are a [I]lot[/I] of variants of the core monsters here, as pointed out by [USER=2209]@Voadam[/USER] - probably more than in any other edition. I'm not sure about any other particular pattern to these additions, but I'm open to suggestions! [B]Monster Vault[/B] Despite being a slimmer and more "iconic" listing than the original 4e MM, there are still a good number of one-offs: [LIST] [*]Archons (4e): earth and water. [*]Basilisks: abyssal, mesmeric-eye, and wilt-eye. [*]Dracoliches: deathbringer and doomlord. [*]Drakes: ambush and bloodseeker. [*]Liches: necromancer, remnant, and soulreaver. [*]Mummies: moldering, royal, and tomb guardian. [*]Ropers: cave, crag, and impaling. [*]Rust monsters: gluttonous, and young rust monster swarm. [*]Stirges: death husk, suckerling, and suckerling swarm. [*]Treants: bramblewood and grove guardian. [*]Trolls: battle troll, bladerager troll, and ghost troll render. [*]Umber hulks: bewilderer, deep hulk, and tunneler. [*]Wraiths: figment and sovereign. [*]Zombies: flesh-crazed, grasping, and hulking. [*]Abyssal eviscerator (demon) [*]Charnel otyugh [*]Frost titan (giant) [*]Human transmuter [*]Poisonscale lizardfolk [*]Ravenous ghoul [*]Rocktempest gargoyle [*]Savage displacer beast [*]Skeletal legionary [*]Vampire night witch [*]Venom-maw hydra [*]War hyena [*]Wind-claw owlbear [*]Bear and horse (generic versions that don't neatly correspond to any other edition's take) [*]Spiders: cave and doomspinner. [/LIST] The main difference seems to be that while the 4e MM has some lesser-known and unique monsters, the MV is strictly about variants of classic monsters. Not sure if there's any particular intent to the variants chosen here vs. the ones in the MM. [B]4e overall[/B] These were in both the Monster Manual and the Monster Vault, but not core in other editions: [LIST] [*]Dragonborn [*]Eladrin (elf flavor) [*]Angels: of battle, protection, valor, and vengeance. [*]Archons (4e): fire and ice. [*]Drakes: guard, rage, and spitting. [*]Giants: earth titan and fire titan. [*]Skeletons: blazing, decrepit, and skeletal tomb guardian. [*]Abyssal ghoul [*]Blackroot treant [*]Blackscale lizardfolk [*]Bog hag [*]Deathjump spider [*]Dire bulette [*]Dire stirge [*]Enormous carrion crawler [*]Legion devil (merregon) [*]Mad wraith [*]Medusa (male a la 4e) [*]Nabassu gargoyle [*]Venom-eye basilisk [*]Winterclaw owlbear [/LIST] This block deserves some extra attention, because while the tones of the two core monsters books are different - major overhaul vs. decidedly retro - these 30 or so remained in both. That suggests the designers were very attached to having them in the game, and so probably say something about the 4e design philosophy. Not sure what, though! Why didn't any of these carry forward? The pithy, cynical answer is because 5e was trying to win back lapsed fans, and that meant throwing 4e innovations under the bus. I don't know that it's so simple, though, because some new-to-core 4e creatures did carry forward to the 5e MM, like flameskulls and helmed horrors. Ditto a few minor variants that I didn't call out, like the orc eye of Gruumsh (MM) or the gnoll fang of Yeenoghu (MV). But I suppose it wasn't that many, in the grand scheme... So what do you all think of these 4e refugees? Any you want to see return? (The immolith is one I think is pretty neat. And I'm glad the skull lord returned in MTOF...) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The abandoned core monsters of D&D
Top