The Answer is not (always) on your Character Sheet

[payn]

In 46 years of playing, I've never experienced it, so couldn't tell you. But then I don't think we ever had what I described as an obtuse mystery. Or maybe we just had players that really loved solving mysteries. Shrug. In any case, it never "broke the adventure," which is what I think you're getting at.

EDIT: To clarify, most mysteries in CoC aren't designed in such a way as to block all forward process if they aren't solved. They can help, but they aren't typically required.

Mostly my experience too, though I had a GM that was very, "players will sink or swim on their own". By that he would let a game a stall out indefinitely while the player chased their tails sessions at a time.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think it's all about being transparent up front on what is the domain of "player skill" and what is the domain of "character skill". And trying to remove overlap.

It's a game so there is some player skill involved. In D&D combat this is where to move, what ability to use, etc.

The problem comes when there is overlap and one "overrules" the other in a unsatisfying way.

You could have a game where all social interactions are player skill. But if you do, don't have character traits that relate to charisma, diplomacy, etc.

You can have a combination of player skill and character skill resolution but you need to be clear what is what. It's implicit in many 5e D&D games I've seem that the social player skill is "the right to roll" -- the player skill sets up the situational context that allows you to make a skill check that influences the situation. Not the best system but better than the "the player skill can completely override the character sheet" method.

 

[Wolfpack48]

I found FantasyCraft's explicit "hint" abilities useful in that front. You straight up just ask the GM for help, flavored as either investigative prowess or divination.

Yep, there's quite a few ways to give more info until you are almost solving the mystery for them. Knowledge rolls, Memory rolls, Luck rolls even pointing to a few handouts that were given. By the way, this is still pretty funny, though I don't mean any insults at all to anyone, especially anyone with a disability. I’d never put a mystery game in front of a table that doesn’t like mysteries.

 

[Reynard]

It's a game so there is some player skill involved. In D&D combat this is where to move, what ability to use, etc.

The problem comes when there is overlap and one "overrules" the other in a unsatisfying way.

You could have a game where all social interactions are player skill. But if you do, don't have character traits that relate to charisma, diplomacy, etc.

This seems arbitrary and contradictory. You explicitly state that combat combines player skill and character skill through te choice of tactics. Why wouldn't social situations work exactly the same way?

 

[Wolfpack48]

This seems arbitrary and contradictory. You explicitly state that combat combines player skill and character skill through te choice of tactics. Why wouldn't social situations work exactly the same way?

A good bout of roleplaying can give a bonus to a social skill roll. However, I would never penalize a character’s good idea or rp or participation because they have a low social skill or stat on their character sheet.

 

[Pedantic]

A good bout of roleplaying can give a bonus to a social skill roll. However, I would never penalize a character’s good idea or rp or participation because they have a low social skill or stat on their character sheet.

That could as easily be read "charismatic players don't need to invest in social skills" or "particularly introverted players will be taxed several skill points."

 

[Wolfpack48]

That could as easily be read "charismatic players don't need to invest in social skills" or "particularly introverted players will be taxed several skill points."

If an introverted player wanted to play a charismatic character, I’d encourage them to invest in the skills, maybe even give them extra points for doing so, and wouldn’t penalize them for not RPing. I also think any good idea or bit of rp, no matter how charismatic or introverted the person is, should not be penalized by the character sheet, or even the rules.

Honestly though I don’t have radically charismatic players at the table who take over - they all RP to some extent.

 

[bloodtide]

One of the interesting aspects of this thread topic is how its applied in pillars of D&D. The mechanical layout of the system flows in this order; Combat>Exploration>Social. With social being the most likely target of answer not on character sheet thought. During the social mechanics threads there were a number of folks voicing the idea that mechanics are not needed because social pillar is where the role play lives. Some pillars are viewed as heavily leaning, if not exclusively into mechanics or role play, but do not contain elements of both.

I would disagree.

Yes, a lot of DMs force only pure crunch rule mechanics with zero role playing for combat. Though most of these DMs will do this for all game actions. You can only get past the Gate Guard if your character makes a charisma check, type DMs. And even a lot of the DMs that are left will still want the crunch rule mechanics in combat for "feel" or "balance" or some other feeling.

But you can use "not on your character sheet" actions for things like battlefield control. Force a foe to fight on a ledge, on a slick surface, in water and so on. Or just knocking things down to make hard terrain. And you can even kill foes too. Get them on a high spot like a bridge walkway...and cut it loose. Get them in a room full of water. Drop them in a vat of acid or pool of lava. Drop a boulder on them.

For combat, way too many DMs and players are stuck in the box of combat must be like a video game: each side takes a turn to make an attack and do damage and the hit points go down. The side to loose all there hit points first looses.

Though there are ways to inflict damage that are not "I roll a 1d20 to hit" type attacks. For example, trapping a foe in an area that is on fire will cause them damage. Or if you trap the foe underwater: the AC of 30 with 200 hp don't matter if the foe is at the bottom of a river chained to a rock.....

 

[Reynard]

A good bout of roleplaying can give a bonus to a social skill roll. However, I would never penalize a character’s good idea or rp or participation because they have a low social skill or stat on their character sheet.

Would you give the same benefit to a character in combat if the player made a good tactical choice but their stats weren't up to the task?

 

[Wolfpack48]

Would you give the same benefit to a character in combat if the player made a good tactical choice but their stats weren't up to the task?

Absolutely! Any good idea gets rewarded, and I'm a big believer in rewarding the characters as much as possible.

The thing is, I think the stats on the sheet are good for most neutral tests, but ultimately the player is driving that character, and if they are playing them actively, coming up with ideas for doing anything, rping something showing that they are engaged, or even suggesting doing something their character is good at to engage with the adventure, that should be rewarded in some way.