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The Barbarian has been Nerfed YET AGAIN. Where is Thick Hide?
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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 6166836" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>So i've been meaning to try out some character creation, so this debate gave me a great oppurtunity. Lets try an iconic barb vs fighter and see how they stack up.</p><p></p><p>I decided on a 10th level comparison, no magic items, though i assumed enough money to get them the weapon and armor they would want. Note that (A) represents advantage.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Primal Rage: 10th level Half Orc Berserker Barb (all stats assume rage)</strong></p><p>Str: 20 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 10 Ability Bumps: (Str +2 race, +2 AB. Dex: +1 AB. Con: +1 race, + 1AB)</p><p>Feat: 2 AB.</p><p></p><p>Offense:</p><p>Attack (Greataxe): +8 (A) / +8 (A). Gets another attack if he misses.</p><p>Damage (Greataxe): 1d12 + 8, Crit: +2d8+1d12 (i wasn't sure if the barb crit ability added to the base weapon or the special crit damage, i chose the base weapon).</p><p></p><p>Defense:</p><p>HP: 95</p><p>AC (mithral shirt): 16</p><p>Takes half damage from piecing/slashing/bludgeoning.</p><p></p><p>Misc:</p><p>Speed: 40</p><p>Init: +3 (A)</p><p>Immune to Fear</p><p>Immune to Charm</p><p>Cannot be surprised</p><p></p><p>VS</p><p></p><p><strong>Iron Heart 10th level Mountain Dwarf Path of the Warrior Fighter</strong></p><p>Str: 19 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 14 Cha: 10 (Str: +2 AB, +1 AB. Con: +1 race, +1 AB. Wis: +1 race)</p><p>Feats: Heavy Armor Master, 2 AB.</p><p></p><p>Offense:</p><p>Attack (Battleaxe):+8/+8</p><p>Damage: 1d8+4. Crit: +1d12 (crits on 18-20).</p><p></p><p>Defense:</p><p>HP: 94 (141 if we count second wind).</p><p>AC (mithral plate, shield, +1 race, +1 class): 22</p><p>-3 damage from bludgeoning/slashing/piercing.</p><p></p><p>Misc:</p><p>Speed: 25</p><p>Init: +1</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To test these guys out, i chose a bruiser monster around the 10th level mark, and came upon a fire giant. A lot of math is going on behind the scenes. I've got it if people need it, but for presentation i will just lay out the results:</p><p></p><p>Offense: (damage per round)</p><p>Barbarian %hit per swing: 79%. DPR: 29.855</p><p>Fighter %hit per swing: 55%. DRR: 10.6</p><p></p><p>Here are the major factors. The barbarian's advantage on every swing adds a big accuracy bonus, and it does more flat out damage. Further, if the barb misses at least one attack, it gets one more swing. The fighter does crit more often, but the barb crits harder.</p><p></p><p>Defense: (damage taken per round).</p><p>Barbarian: %chance to take a hit: 70%. DTPR: 9.25</p><p>Fighter: %chance to take a hit: 40%. DTPR: 9.5</p><p></p><p>This one is very interesting. Even though the fighter is much harder to hit, the barb takes a lot less damage whenever it does get hit. Further, both of them take crits with the same regularity, which favors the barb. However, there is more going on here. The fighters deny death ability needs to be factored in, and i decided to use his action surge to get him a free second wind, which effectively increases his hitpoints. With all of that factored in, how many rounds would we expect each guy to stay up?</p><p></p><p>Barbarian: 10 rounds (this worked out really nicely since barb rage lasts 10 rounds).</p><p>Fighter: 15.3 rounds (without defy death and second wind, the fighter only lasts 9 rounds - less than the barb!. However, the big boost of extra hitpoints makes the most difference, defy death gives him 1.3 more rounds of fighting).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Overall Output: (damage x rounds alive in combat)</p><p>Barbarian: 298.55</p><p>Fighter: 162.18</p><p>Winner: Barbarian by 84%!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Analysis: Now i don't believe a strict math analysis is going to give us full insight into how classes match up, and certainly not with just one analysis. However, there are a few things we can glean:</p><p></p><p>1) At least in this scenario, the barb's damage resistance is very powerful, it is actually better than the most defensive character i could make for a fighter. As damage per swing decreases the fighter is more comparable but i think it proves it is worth several points of AC all on its own.</p><p>2) The barb's offense was hugely greater than the fighter's. The advantage bonus played a lot, and that extra swing on a miss also contributed a decent amount.</p><p>3) A did not factor in surprise. On a readiness score of 10, the fighter had a 35% chance of not even going in the first round. And the barb has better initiative.</p><p>4) The barb also is better with ranged weapons.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So my final impression. I'm not coming out of this saying the Barb is OP. The barb is probably the most combat oriented class right now, the fighter has a bit more generalist flavor to him and the barb can't handle as many fights at full capacity as a fighter can. That said, i think the analysis showed that the barb looks pretty good on paper, and i certainly wouldn't say they need any buffing unless something just comes out in playtesting i was not expecting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 6166836, member: 5889"] So i've been meaning to try out some character creation, so this debate gave me a great oppurtunity. Lets try an iconic barb vs fighter and see how they stack up. I decided on a 10th level comparison, no magic items, though i assumed enough money to get them the weapon and armor they would want. Note that (A) represents advantage. [B] Primal Rage: 10th level Half Orc Berserker Barb (all stats assume rage)[/B] Str: 20 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 10 Ability Bumps: (Str +2 race, +2 AB. Dex: +1 AB. Con: +1 race, + 1AB) Feat: 2 AB. Offense: Attack (Greataxe): +8 (A) / +8 (A). Gets another attack if he misses. Damage (Greataxe): 1d12 + 8, Crit: +2d8+1d12 (i wasn't sure if the barb crit ability added to the base weapon or the special crit damage, i chose the base weapon). Defense: HP: 95 AC (mithral shirt): 16 Takes half damage from piecing/slashing/bludgeoning. Misc: Speed: 40 Init: +3 (A) Immune to Fear Immune to Charm Cannot be surprised VS [B]Iron Heart 10th level Mountain Dwarf Path of the Warrior Fighter[/B] Str: 19 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 14 Cha: 10 (Str: +2 AB, +1 AB. Con: +1 race, +1 AB. Wis: +1 race) Feats: Heavy Armor Master, 2 AB. Offense: Attack (Battleaxe):+8/+8 Damage: 1d8+4. Crit: +1d12 (crits on 18-20). Defense: HP: 94 (141 if we count second wind). AC (mithral plate, shield, +1 race, +1 class): 22 -3 damage from bludgeoning/slashing/piercing. Misc: Speed: 25 Init: +1 To test these guys out, i chose a bruiser monster around the 10th level mark, and came upon a fire giant. A lot of math is going on behind the scenes. I've got it if people need it, but for presentation i will just lay out the results: Offense: (damage per round) Barbarian %hit per swing: 79%. DPR: 29.855 Fighter %hit per swing: 55%. DRR: 10.6 Here are the major factors. The barbarian's advantage on every swing adds a big accuracy bonus, and it does more flat out damage. Further, if the barb misses at least one attack, it gets one more swing. The fighter does crit more often, but the barb crits harder. Defense: (damage taken per round). Barbarian: %chance to take a hit: 70%. DTPR: 9.25 Fighter: %chance to take a hit: 40%. DTPR: 9.5 This one is very interesting. Even though the fighter is much harder to hit, the barb takes a lot less damage whenever it does get hit. Further, both of them take crits with the same regularity, which favors the barb. However, there is more going on here. The fighters deny death ability needs to be factored in, and i decided to use his action surge to get him a free second wind, which effectively increases his hitpoints. With all of that factored in, how many rounds would we expect each guy to stay up? Barbarian: 10 rounds (this worked out really nicely since barb rage lasts 10 rounds). Fighter: 15.3 rounds (without defy death and second wind, the fighter only lasts 9 rounds - less than the barb!. However, the big boost of extra hitpoints makes the most difference, defy death gives him 1.3 more rounds of fighting). Overall Output: (damage x rounds alive in combat) Barbarian: 298.55 Fighter: 162.18 Winner: Barbarian by 84%! Analysis: Now i don't believe a strict math analysis is going to give us full insight into how classes match up, and certainly not with just one analysis. However, there are a few things we can glean: 1) At least in this scenario, the barb's damage resistance is very powerful, it is actually better than the most defensive character i could make for a fighter. As damage per swing decreases the fighter is more comparable but i think it proves it is worth several points of AC all on its own. 2) The barb's offense was hugely greater than the fighter's. The advantage bonus played a lot, and that extra swing on a miss also contributed a decent amount. 3) A did not factor in surprise. On a readiness score of 10, the fighter had a 35% chance of not even going in the first round. And the barb has better initiative. 4) The barb also is better with ranged weapons. So my final impression. I'm not coming out of this saying the Barb is OP. The barb is probably the most combat oriented class right now, the fighter has a bit more generalist flavor to him and the barb can't handle as many fights at full capacity as a fighter can. That said, i think the analysis showed that the barb looks pretty good on paper, and i certainly wouldn't say they need any buffing unless something just comes out in playtesting i was not expecting. [/QUOTE]
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