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<blockquote data-quote="ferratus" data-source="post: 6015293" data-attributes="member: 55966">Fiddlesticks, the ranger has to be self-reliant.&nbsp; Any ability that he lacks that keeps him from being self reliant he should be allowed to pick up.&nbsp;&nbsp; A ranger that has to depend on a party to survive isn't a ranger... he is a guide.A rogue needs the skills to cheat, lie, and steal.&nbsp; That's why he has always been good with scrolls and other pilfered magical items.&nbsp;&nbsp; That's why he has never been particularly good at skills involving honest work, fighting, and casting spells himself.&nbsp;&nbsp; Any skill that doesn't help him steal is useless to the rogue, and therefore he doesn't fit the jack-of-all trades mantle either.The bard wanders between inns and the courts of nobles.&nbsp; So he doesn't really need to be self-sufficient in the wild.&nbsp; He needs to learn basic defense, but he doesn't need to fight well enough to defend himself from all comers because he always travels with others.&nbsp; &nbsp; There is no reason as well that song magic has to be less powerful than other forms of magic, but it is arbitrarily reduced in power because we are loading him up with rogue and fighter abilities that he doesn't need for his basic concept to work.That's the thing, the more we make the bard a jack of all trades, the less he is good at the things we actually want him to do.&nbsp; Namely, being really good at social skills and songs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ferratus, post: 6015293, member: 55966"] Fiddlesticks, the ranger has to be self-reliant. Any ability that he lacks that keeps him from being self reliant he should be allowed to pick up. A ranger that has to depend on a party to survive isn't a ranger... he is a guide. A rogue needs the skills to cheat, lie, and steal. That's why he has always been good with scrolls and other pilfered magical items. That's why he has never been particularly good at skills involving honest work, fighting, and casting spells himself. Any skill that doesn't help him steal is useless to the rogue, and therefore he doesn't fit the jack-of-all trades mantle either. The bard wanders between inns and the courts of nobles. So he doesn't really need to be self-sufficient in the wild. He needs to learn basic defense, but he doesn't need to fight well enough to defend himself from all comers because he always travels with others. There is no reason as well that song magic has to be less powerful than other forms of magic, but it is arbitrarily reduced in power because we are loading him up with rogue and fighter abilities that he doesn't need for his basic concept to work. That's the thing, the more we make the bard a jack of all trades, the less he is good at the things we actually want him to do. Namely, being really good at social skills and songs. [/QUOTE]

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