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The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7770734" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Okay, but WHY is it unhealthy? Based on what metric? </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">It's not like enjoying adult activities inherently makes someone more responsible or mature. I doubt there's any reliable correlation between the maturity of an individual and their choice of escapist vs non-escapist entertainment. </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">If we're really digging deep here, we can't just assume that things we arbitrarily deem "mature" are inherently more desirable or worthy of praise. Why are certain things more "adult" than others? Who gets to decide? </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Why is a long romantic period drama about fictitious nobles more "adult" than a movie about the fictitious ruler of an African Futuristic kingdom? Or a billionaire industrialist playboy philanthropist in a metal suit?</span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You're also only looking at the few excellent films that were also box office successes and ignoring the many classic films that bombed or were only middling successes. Like <em>Shawshank Redemption</em>, <em>Schindler's List</em>, <em>Casablanca</em>, <em>On the Waterfront</em>, <em>Singing in the Rain</em>, <em>Sunset Boulevard</em>, <em>12 Angry Men</em>, or <em>Chinatown</em> And, of course, the big one, <em>Citizen Kane</em>. </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Seriously, compare the AFI's list of greatest films (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_100_Years...100_Movies#List" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI's_100_Years...100_Movies#List</a>) with the all time box office list (</span></span><a href="https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><u>[url]https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm</u></span></span></a>[/URL]<span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">) </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You're also cherry picking the most mature films of the era to prove that people's tastes have declined, and ignoring other popular hit films of the '60s. Such as, <em>101 Dalmatians</em>, <em>The Love Bug</em>, <em>Thunderball</em>, <em>Animal House</em>, and <em>Psycho</em>. All of which are higher on the All-Time Box Office chart than <em>Midnight Cowboy</em>.</span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">This is also ignoring other factors. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Such as the much larger number of films being produced, which decreases the amount of time a single film is in theaters to make money. Fewer people are going to see it twice, and there's more choices. Popular movies used to be able to run for years. Now if they make it four months it's impressive. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">And also the competition of other forms of entertainment: television, personal copies, computer games, streaming, books, plays, etc. There's less drive to get out to movies, and more freedom to stay at home. Plus, new "classic" films are also competing against every classic ever released. Why watch a new film that's like <em>Gone With the Wind</em> when you can just watch <em>Gone With the Wind</em>?</span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">It's less that people ever really wanted the more mature films. Its that there were fewer choices and less competition for an evening out.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">When you adjust for inflation, there's only three movies released in the last twenty years on the chart: individuals movies just don't make as much money. </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">There's also something fundamentally problematic about using motion pictures as the baseline for the maturity of society. And not the popularity of, say, the opera and theater.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You could just as easily argue that the popularity of literary and intellectual television shows (<em>Game of Thrones</em> or <em>Westworld</em>) also speaks highly of society. Or how the last four to five years were some of the biggest years in Broadway history. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">First, it says that the market has spoken. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Because this isn't some recent phenomena. It started in the '70s. Not the current generation or even their parents, but their parent's parents. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">People clearly wanted spectacle, and they were given spectacle. </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Second, this also ignores how much fantasy was in the classic movies. <em>Ben Hur</em> and <em>Ten Commandments</em> were big SFX blockbusters of the era. They're only "adult" because they're old and thus deemed "classics". </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">As has been said in this thread, Dickens and Shakespeare were stuff crapped out for the masses. They were popular entertainment and spectacle. Dickens in particular is pretty terrible from a modern sense: he was paid by the word and it shows. And he was literally making up his plots as he went along.</span></span><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I don't know. What <strong><em>does</em></strong> it say? </span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: '-webkit-standard'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You dance around the question but never answer. What does it say?</span></span></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7770734, member: 37579"] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Okay, but WHY is it unhealthy? Based on what metric? [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]It's not like enjoying adult activities inherently makes someone more responsible or mature. I doubt there's any reliable correlation between the maturity of an individual and their choice of escapist vs non-escapist entertainment. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]If we're really digging deep here, we can't just assume that things we arbitrarily deem "mature" are inherently more desirable or worthy of praise. Why are certain things more "adult" than others? Who gets to decide? [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Why is a long romantic period drama about fictitious nobles more "adult" than a movie about the fictitious ruler of an African Futuristic kingdom? Or a billionaire industrialist playboy philanthropist in a metal suit?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]You're also only looking at the few excellent films that were also box office successes and ignoring the many classic films that bombed or were only middling successes. Like [i]Shawshank Redemption[/i], [i]Schindler's List[/i], [i]Casablanca[/i], [i]On the Waterfront[/i], [i]Singing in the Rain[/i], [i]Sunset Boulevard[/i], [i]12 Angry Men[/i], or [i]Chinatown[/i] And, of course, the big one, [i]Citizen Kane[/i]. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Seriously, compare the AFI's list of greatest films ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_100_Years...100_Movies#List[/url]) with the all time box office list ([/FONT][/COLOR][URL="https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm"][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Arial][U][url]https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm[/U][/FONT][/COLOR][/url][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Arial][U][/U][/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]) [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]You're also cherry picking the most mature films of the era to prove that people's tastes have declined, and ignoring other popular hit films of the '60s. Such as, [i]101 Dalmatians[/i], [i]The Love Bug[/i], [i]Thunderball[/i], [i]Animal House[/i], and [i]Psycho[/i]. All of which are higher on the All-Time Box Office chart than [i]Midnight Cowboy[/i].[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]This is also ignoring other factors. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Such as the much larger number of films being produced, which decreases the amount of time a single film is in theaters to make money. Fewer people are going to see it twice, and there's more choices. Popular movies used to be able to run for years. Now if they make it four months it's impressive. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]And also the competition of other forms of entertainment: television, personal copies, computer games, streaming, books, plays, etc. There's less drive to get out to movies, and more freedom to stay at home. Plus, new "classic" films are also competing against every classic ever released. Why watch a new film that's like [i]Gone With the Wind[/i] when you can just watch [i]Gone With the Wind[/i]?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]It's less that people ever really wanted the more mature films. Its that there were fewer choices and less competition for an evening out.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]When you adjust for inflation, there's only three movies released in the last twenty years on the chart: individuals movies just don't make as much money. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]There's also something fundamentally problematic about using motion pictures as the baseline for the maturity of society. And not the popularity of, say, the opera and theater.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]You could just as easily argue that the popularity of literary and intellectual television shows ([i]Game of Thrones[/i] or [i]Westworld[/i]) also speaks highly of society. Or how the last four to five years were some of the biggest years in Broadway history. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]First, it says that the market has spoken. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Because this isn't some recent phenomena. It started in the '70s. Not the current generation or even their parents, but their parent's parents. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]People clearly wanted spectacle, and they were given spectacle. [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]Second, this also ignores how much fantasy was in the classic movies. [i]Ben Hur[/i] and [i]Ten Commandments[/i] were big SFX blockbusters of the era. They're only "adult" because they're old and thus deemed "classics". [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]As has been said in this thread, Dickens and Shakespeare were stuff crapped out for the masses. They were popular entertainment and spectacle. Dickens in particular is pretty terrible from a modern sense: he was paid by the word and it shows. And he was literally making up his plots as he went along.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]I don't know. What [b][i]does[/i][/b] it say? [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=-webkit-standard][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Arial]You dance around the question but never answer. What does it say?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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