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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6561471" data-attributes="member: 42582">I haven't GMed or seen the data for hundreds of tables - only mine.We don't use Expertise feats in our game, and - as I posted - the players have no trouble hitting. 28th level PCs delivered 700 hp of damage to AC 51, F 46, R/W 49 Lolth in 1 round. The PCs do have ways to generate buffs on attacks and debuffs on defence, and on this particular occasion they piled them on. I could see how groups with less buff-y builds, or less skill in play, would have trouble (though I wouldn't expect epic play to be the first place for it to rear its head - for those sorts of players 4e is, in general, likely to be a mixed experience).We don't have builds that lead to &quot;2s to hit, 20s to be hit&quot; - the best defences on our PCs (paladin's AC, sorcerer's NADs) generally don't get worse than 15 or so needed by an on-level opponent, and there are plenty that can be hit on a 10 or less (paladin's Reflex, invoker/wizard on anything but will).I think that if you want to deal with this issue, you have to tackle it at its source - stacking buffs and debuffs. The expertise feats are (in my view) a red herring.How much are you exaggerating about 5e? If this really is true of it, it counts as a big blow against it from my personal point of view.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6561471, member: 42582"] I haven't GMed or seen the data for hundreds of tables - only mine. We don't use Expertise feats in our game, and - as I posted - the players have no trouble hitting. 28th level PCs delivered 700 hp of damage to AC 51, F 46, R/W 49 Lolth in 1 round. The PCs do have ways to generate buffs on attacks and debuffs on defence, and on this particular occasion they piled them on. I could see how groups with less buff-y builds, or less skill in play, would have trouble (though I wouldn't expect epic play to be the first place for it to rear its head - for those sorts of players 4e is, in general, likely to be a mixed experience). We don't have builds that lead to "2s to hit, 20s to be hit" - the best defences on our PCs (paladin's AC, sorcerer's NADs) generally don't get worse than 15 or so needed by an on-level opponent, and there are plenty that can be hit on a 10 or less (paladin's Reflex, invoker/wizard on anything but will). I think that if you want to deal with this issue, you have to tackle it at its source - stacking buffs and debuffs. The expertise feats are (in my view) a red herring. How much are you exaggerating about 5e? If this really is true of it, it counts as a big blow against it from my personal point of view. [/QUOTE]

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