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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Best Thing from 4E
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<blockquote data-quote="Aenghus" data-source="post: 6564285" data-attributes="member: 2656"><p>I think a lot depends on how much one cares about successfully accomplishing tasks in the game versus the procedure of how one achieves success. Myself, I'm invested in the former, not the latter. In most editions of D&D there isn't much in the way of system for larger macro tasks, the systems are mostly for subtasks. In these editions the most critical part of the process is persuading the DM that your plan is viable. The advice in the earlier DMG's for this sort of thing tends to be awful, I vaguely remember such adversarial ideas as not giving the PCs a clue of their odds or even if the task is possible in the first place, or the consequences of failure. A body of precedent would slowly be built up, at least the games valuing consistency, and that precedent could be used to leverage success in tasks step by step. If the process steps that made sense to the DM didn't make sense to me I was highly unlikely to guess at a path to victory. I have experience of such games, and they are exactly as frustrating as I have tried to indicate above.</p><p></p><p>Skill challenges in 4e give a framework where the players can expect success or failure within a certain discrete number of steps </p><p>The more cooperative, less adversarial advice I find excellent e.g. it's ok to just permit success when the stakes are low. A qualified guarantee that success is possible within the rules without having to resort to selling a line to the DM or using broken magic spells is something I find very attractive.</p><p></p><p>4e cares about the ends far more than the means, it is true. If you care a lot about the means, you may have to make lots of rulings on them, as the 4e rules can leave them ill-defined, because they vary so much from campaign to campaign and to allow for easier reskinning.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aenghus, post: 6564285, member: 2656"] I think a lot depends on how much one cares about successfully accomplishing tasks in the game versus the procedure of how one achieves success. Myself, I'm invested in the former, not the latter. In most editions of D&D there isn't much in the way of system for larger macro tasks, the systems are mostly for subtasks. In these editions the most critical part of the process is persuading the DM that your plan is viable. The advice in the earlier DMG's for this sort of thing tends to be awful, I vaguely remember such adversarial ideas as not giving the PCs a clue of their odds or even if the task is possible in the first place, or the consequences of failure. A body of precedent would slowly be built up, at least the games valuing consistency, and that precedent could be used to leverage success in tasks step by step. If the process steps that made sense to the DM didn't make sense to me I was highly unlikely to guess at a path to victory. I have experience of such games, and they are exactly as frustrating as I have tried to indicate above. Skill challenges in 4e give a framework where the players can expect success or failure within a certain discrete number of steps The more cooperative, less adversarial advice I find excellent e.g. it's ok to just permit success when the stakes are low. A qualified guarantee that success is possible within the rules without having to resort to selling a line to the DM or using broken magic spells is something I find very attractive. 4e cares about the ends far more than the means, it is true. If you care a lot about the means, you may have to make lots of rulings on them, as the 4e rules can leave them ill-defined, because they vary so much from campaign to campaign and to allow for easier reskinning. [/QUOTE]
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