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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1000" data-source="post: 6569813" data-attributes="member: 29013">First, kudos to Manbearcat for the real play SC post.   It's good to talk actual example vs. theory.I think the play example is good but the original stated goal is not compelling enough for me.  A better choice of success / failure would I think answer JamesonCourage's point as well.IMO, SC have to have narrative teeth to be worth playing out.   This narrative teeth also further serves the purpose of removing the need for illusionism.So for Manbear's example, I think a much better set up would be something like:DM:  So, you want to keep these children safe?   Well, this area is very dangerous -- full of predators and extreme terrain.   Success at the SC means you find safe shelter, for every failure you lose 1/3 of the children.   (or complete failure means you lose half or whatever -- something with real teeth)And forget healing surge costs, combat etc.   The SC itself has consequences if failed.   That's why your bothering to play it out.   That's why it's nice and tense.   So, sure, the mountain lion could end up eating some kids but that is a result of the failed roll -- an abstraction of a lot of things, including fighting off the mountain lion.  Another example:Not worth doing -- Hike through the wilderness skill challenge.   Success -- you find your way to Ragamuffin Village. No pressing reason to be in Ragamuffin Village.  Failure - everyone loses 2 healing surges.       Worth doing -- Find your way through the uncharted wilderness in three days.  No has ever done the trip in less than a week.   Success -- you get to Ragmuffin Village in time to defend it from invaders you know are on the way .   Failure -- you get there too late and the village is sacked.  friends die. (opens up adventure to track down captured inhabitants if desired though!).   Or if you want to define micro failures -- each failure is one more day to reach the village giving you a harder time defending it.   Complete failure like above.If you don't define the micro failure consequence ahead of time then during the skill challenge failures (and successes) on individual checks simply influence the narrative, change the framing, and may open up or close down which skills are suitable.   Yes, the DM still has a lot of latitude on how this unfolds but it doesn't have to work like  --  "You can call for combat, or 1 healing surge lost, or 10 healing surges lost, or magic items or blessing disappearing, or loss of a hand or eye, or someone loyal betraying her, or whatever."   When the consequences of the SC are decided before hand (whether not to tell the players is another choice but a lesser one) then I think it solves of lot of this issue.It also helps you decide if the SC is worth doing in the first place.   Often the "success goal" sounds interesting, but if the "failure goal" isn't equally interesting than maybe it's not worth doing.   That's why I much prefer narrative consequences to mechanical ones (healing surge lost, combat that doesn't really matter, etc.).These are the kinds of things I wish they worked out further in a Next Gen Skill Challenge system.</blockquote>

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