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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6572299" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't know OD&amp;D as well as I know AD&amp;D, and my grasp of Chainmail is weaker again.In 1st ed AD&amp;D, as I noted in my post, all this is definitely the case. Looking at OD&amp;D, 1st level fighters had 1D+1 for hit dice, whereas the &quot;men&quot; in Monsters &amp; Treasure have 1D - so the PC is stronger. On the attack side, a 1st level fighter is &quot;Man +1&quot; which is better than a typical NPC. In the aternative combat system, though, there is no 0-level column like there is in AD&amp;D (and in B/X, labelled &quot;Normal Man&quot; rather than 0-level).I agree that PCs were built in a way to promote the game's agenda. I still feel that the issue of &quot;dramatic weight&quot;, as part of agenda, hadn't been given the same attention in this early D&amp;D design as a contemporary designer would give it.Yes. I'm not saying that OD&amp;D used the same stats for PCs and NPCs/monsters. I'm saying that I don't think the element of &quot;dramatic/literary&quot; weight had been given the attention that a modern designer would give it.Even in the case of RQ, I don't think the design was same stats in order to deliberately push an agenda of &quot;no dramatic weight for PCs&quot; - to the extent that that was a consequence, it was more of an unintended consequence, I would say. I think the motivation for the design was a view about &quot;elegance&quot; or &quot;simplicity&quot; of design.I'd note, also, that 4e uses the same mechanical format for PCs and monsters/NPCs. It's just that the methods of generating those stats, and the details of them, give PCs a heft that monsters/NPCs lack. So I think the issue of &quot;same stats&quot; and the issue of dramatic weight, while not unconnected, aren't identical either.I think this is probably true of the very earliest D&amp;D (by the time of AD&amp;D, I think that design awareness was growing). But it is also somewhat orthogonal to your claim upthread.Even if a designer builds a &quot;drama-neutral&quot; game by default, that doesn't mean that the game lacks an agenda, in the sense of a default playstyle towards which it will push participants. Upthread, you said &quot;It's like the game is forcing its own agenda on you&quot;. Well, a &quot;drama-neutral&quot; game will have that effect too, whether or not the designer set out to achieve that effect, or noticed it in play him-/herself.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6572299, member: 42582"] I don't know OD&D as well as I know AD&D, and my grasp of Chainmail is weaker again. In 1st ed AD&D, as I noted in my post, all this is definitely the case. Looking at OD&D, 1st level fighters had 1D+1 for hit dice, whereas the "men" in Monsters & Treasure have 1D - so the PC is stronger. On the attack side, a 1st level fighter is "Man +1" which is better than a typical NPC. In the aternative combat system, though, there is no 0-level column like there is in AD&D (and in B/X, labelled "Normal Man" rather than 0-level). I agree that PCs were built in a way to promote the game's agenda. I still feel that the issue of "dramatic weight", as part of agenda, hadn't been given the same attention in this early D&D design as a contemporary designer would give it. Yes. I'm not saying that OD&D used the same stats for PCs and NPCs/monsters. I'm saying that I don't think the element of "dramatic/literary" weight had been given the attention that a modern designer would give it. Even in the case of RQ, I don't think the design was same stats in order to deliberately push an agenda of "no dramatic weight for PCs" - to the extent that that was a consequence, it was more of an unintended consequence, I would say. I think the motivation for the design was a view about "elegance" or "simplicity" of design. I'd note, also, that 4e uses the same mechanical format for PCs and monsters/NPCs. It's just that the methods of generating those stats, and the details of them, give PCs a heft that monsters/NPCs lack. So I think the issue of "same stats" and the issue of dramatic weight, while not unconnected, aren't identical either. I think this is probably true of the very earliest D&D (by the time of AD&D, I think that design awareness was growing). But it is also somewhat orthogonal to your claim upthread. Even if a designer builds a "drama-neutral" game by default, that doesn't mean that the [I]game[/I] lacks an agenda, in the sense of a default playstyle towards which it will push participants. Upthread, you said "It's like the game is forcing its own agenda on you". Well, a "drama-neutral" game will have that effect too, whether or not the designer set out to achieve that effect, or noticed it in play him-/herself. [/QUOTE]

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