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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6572992" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I think they were just employing some sort of anti-4e logic. The best defense of 4e, to them, is that it is a cleaner and more modern game that is more in keeping with the times. So they saw an association of 5e with 2e as an attack on 5e in comparison. Ironically though I mostly LIKED the tone of 2e, it was really the mechanics that were the issue there. As Pemerton has explained, 2e thematically was supposed to be about story and being a system for all sorts of fantasy, but it is still just basically Greyhawk-era mechanics in a new dress. Mechanics that are quite thorough in their examination of dungeon exploration, but lack any coherent way to deal with anything outside their narrow scope.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You could also see it as the orthodoxy vs the 'rebels', with the 4e crowd being the (albeit new) orthodoxy, and the rest being a kind of rebellion against what presumably would otherwise remain the status-quo (even if a new system was developed it would presumably by default be rooted in 4e without really radical changes, much like 3.5 was rooted in 3e). The real question at the time was which camp were the designers in? MM clearly came down in the end almost entirely on the side of throwing off the agenda of 4e, and given what I've heard and what I saw I have to say I think that he wasn't fond of 4e's agenda. So, to me, the whole 'big tent' thing was just a smoke screen. I don't think anyone significantly influenced Mike at all. Perhaps in his mind he constructed a narrative of being the 'broker', but it seems to me that just let him carry out his plans without having to confront the whole issue himself. Anyone pointing out how AD&D-like the resulting rules were turning out to be was basically saying "who's this guy behind the curtain!" which was not at all welcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, again, while some have praised the analysis of the game that came out of the whole Edition War, I only really see the scorched battlefield. My appreciation of the D&D Community was greatly diminished, and the whole thing still makes discussions, even in our group, about choices of games to run fraught. Beyond that I can't help feeling that 5e as a game is fodder for the bunker mentality. All innovation has been beaten out of the game. As much as 5e does incorporate one or two ideas into D&D, FUNDAMENTALLY it is simply a rehashing of old material, tropes, agendas, tone, etc. Its a signpost which says "Don't try to make anything new and different out of D&D." No piece of culture can survive that for long. RPGs will go on, but D&D in its formal sense is done, 5e is a tombstone system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6572992, member: 82106"] I think they were just employing some sort of anti-4e logic. The best defense of 4e, to them, is that it is a cleaner and more modern game that is more in keeping with the times. So they saw an association of 5e with 2e as an attack on 5e in comparison. Ironically though I mostly LIKED the tone of 2e, it was really the mechanics that were the issue there. As Pemerton has explained, 2e thematically was supposed to be about story and being a system for all sorts of fantasy, but it is still just basically Greyhawk-era mechanics in a new dress. Mechanics that are quite thorough in their examination of dungeon exploration, but lack any coherent way to deal with anything outside their narrow scope. You could also see it as the orthodoxy vs the 'rebels', with the 4e crowd being the (albeit new) orthodoxy, and the rest being a kind of rebellion against what presumably would otherwise remain the status-quo (even if a new system was developed it would presumably by default be rooted in 4e without really radical changes, much like 3.5 was rooted in 3e). The real question at the time was which camp were the designers in? MM clearly came down in the end almost entirely on the side of throwing off the agenda of 4e, and given what I've heard and what I saw I have to say I think that he wasn't fond of 4e's agenda. So, to me, the whole 'big tent' thing was just a smoke screen. I don't think anyone significantly influenced Mike at all. Perhaps in his mind he constructed a narrative of being the 'broker', but it seems to me that just let him carry out his plans without having to confront the whole issue himself. Anyone pointing out how AD&D-like the resulting rules were turning out to be was basically saying "who's this guy behind the curtain!" which was not at all welcome. Yeah, again, while some have praised the analysis of the game that came out of the whole Edition War, I only really see the scorched battlefield. My appreciation of the D&D Community was greatly diminished, and the whole thing still makes discussions, even in our group, about choices of games to run fraught. Beyond that I can't help feeling that 5e as a game is fodder for the bunker mentality. All innovation has been beaten out of the game. As much as 5e does incorporate one or two ideas into D&D, FUNDAMENTALLY it is simply a rehashing of old material, tropes, agendas, tone, etc. Its a signpost which says "Don't try to make anything new and different out of D&D." No piece of culture can survive that for long. RPGs will go on, but D&D in its formal sense is done, 5e is a tombstone system. [/QUOTE]
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