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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6573449" data-attributes="member: 42582">Responding to [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] on 5e - I can see where both of you are coming from in your comments on 5e. I don't know if I fully agree. (With the word "fully" used literally, not just for rhetorical effect. I think I partly agree.)On the PC-build side, 5e looks like a revision of Essentials. My best sense, from looking at the rules and following play reports, is that while asymmetric in its builds, it is probably relatively well mathematically balanced over a "standard" adventuring day. And it does have features (cantrips, encounter recharges of some spells, etc) to try to reduce the prospects of caster novas. (Which, if they become routine, obviously blow asymmetric balance out of the water.)The monster stats also seem to be relative methodical in the way they're put together - though, in my view, somewhat boring compared to the best or even the middling of 4e. But it doesn't have the pseudo-simulation of 3E's "natural armour" bonuses, uncapped stats etc, which are just mechanical devices cloaked in the thinnest veil of ingame meaning.I'm one of those who thinks the Stealth rules are terribly written, but I think you could just jack on the 4e rules without any problems.It seems to me, then, that the illusionistic/AD&D-ish elements or tendencies come from other places.First, the encounter-building guidelines are not as crisp as 4e. That said, they're still there, and by all accounts 5e PCs are mechanically very robust, so I don't see why anyone would have to fudge monster hp in 5e moreso than in 4e.Second, the non-combat conflict-resolution mechanics seem to be very thin. It offers structure for exploration, which should reduce the need for illusionism in that department compared to (say) 2nd ed AD&D, but no so much for actual conflicts/encounters which don't involve either violence or charm spells. (13th Age lacks robust non-combat conflict resolution mechanics also, but I think is cleaner in its DC presentation and its fail-forward advice.) This can produce illusionistic non-combat resolution.Third, and here is a contrast with 13th Age, there is no ready-made structure for enforcing the balance of encounters-per-day (especially combat encounters) that will support the asymmetric balance. 4e doesn't have this either (contrast 13th Age), but non-Essentials doesn't need it as much because if everyone novas it might make the encounter a cakewalk but doesn't create intra-party balance issues. This can produce illusionistice managing of pacing.Fourth, two and three somewhat overlap, in that if casters are using their spells to resolve non-combat conflicts, they are powering down in relation to combat, but there is no real corresponding way for non-casters to shift their effort or resources from combat to non-combat because of the aforementioned lack of robust non-combat mechanics (so eg, there is no canonical way that I know of for a fighter to use Action Surge or Second Wind to buff his/her effort in relation to an episode of non-combat resolution that is comparable even to the loose guidance on action point and surge expenditure provided by 4e's DMG2 in its skill challenge section). This can produce illusionistic management of both pacing and resolution.Fifth - and building on one and two - it may be that the core mechanics (PCs + monsters + the sorts of encounters/conflicts the game tends towards, given its resolution mechanics and its build guidelines) aren't as mechanically interesting as 3E (not know well be me, but I gather pretty intricate) and 4e. So the interest has to be "injected" by the GM from outside, which favours manipulation of the story via illusionist techniques.I wonder what [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] or [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] (or, of course, anyone else) thinks of these conjectures?I know your skill and save changes (and have read the thread that explains how your save changes will break this most modular of games!), and I know what slow healing is.What are your Turn Undead, spell level cap and movement changes? I think the 5e rules for combat movement are probably its most dramatic innovation on the action economy side of things.</blockquote>

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