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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6575219" data-attributes="member: 48965">Because you may not have the choice to be proficient in Performance but you can be proficient in a musical instrument, usually via a background... not understanding why that is incoherent?&nbsp; Aren't there people in our own world who can play guitar but can't act?Edit: Better yet why would anyone get a bachelor's degree when they can get a masters?&nbsp; Is that choice also incoherent?I disagree... as a simple example... I am trying to determine the answer (or perhaps just a hint depending on how the DM plays it) to a riddle in a dungeon... or a puzzle to unlock a vault... Or maybe I have a map, a partially burnt letter and an overheasrd partial conversation concerning information about a villains plan, through &quot;investigation&quot; perhaps I can put it all together.&nbsp; All of these things have clues and require deduction, as I said earlier.I agree about Bluff... but the tools, not so sure...The firsdt sentence of the thieving tools states...&quot;To use the thievery skill properly you need the right picks and pries, skeleton keys , clamps and so on.&quot;That doesn't seem clear cut to me... It seems incoherent with what the tools do mechanically...Wait what are the &quot;specific actions&quot; it covers? Isn't the action of casting a spell largely dependent on skill with magic?&nbsp; Would this allow one to determine things about Primal, Divine, or Shadow magic... if not what skills align to these types of magic?&nbsp; Oh, and what skill covers psionic knowledge and actions?IMO... it seems you've internalized how you want these skills to work and that is why you feel there is less ambiguity in the 4e skills...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 6575219, member: 48965"] Because you may not have the choice to be proficient in Performance but you can be proficient in a musical instrument, usually via a background... not understanding why that is incoherent? Aren't there people in our own world who can play guitar but can't act? Edit: Better yet why would anyone get a bachelor's degree when they can get a masters? Is that choice also incoherent? I disagree... as a simple example... I am trying to determine the answer (or perhaps just a hint depending on how the DM plays it) to a riddle in a dungeon... or a puzzle to unlock a vault... Or maybe I have a map, a partially burnt letter and an overheasrd partial conversation concerning information about a villains plan, through "investigation" perhaps I can put it all together. All of these things have clues and require deduction, as I said earlier. I agree about Bluff... but the tools, not so sure...The firsdt sentence of the thieving tools states... "To use the thievery skill properly you need the right picks and pries, skeleton keys , clamps and so on." That doesn't seem clear cut to me... It seems incoherent with what the tools do mechanically... Wait what are the "specific actions" it covers? Isn't the action of casting a spell largely dependent on skill with magic? Would this allow one to determine things about Primal, Divine, or Shadow magic... if not what skills align to these types of magic? Oh, and what skill covers psionic knowledge and actions? IMO... it seems you've internalized how you want these skills to work and that is why you feel there is less ambiguity in the 4e skills... [/QUOTE]

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