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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6575524" data-attributes="member: 48965">Well the most readily available examples would be from published adventures where instead of having an open or fluid conclusion... SC's are couched in absolute terms, even before a die has been rolled as to what success will be and what failure will be.  Now I will say that after the first2, maybe 3 adventures for 4e I stopped buying them so this may have gotten better as time progressed... but this is how I remember being introduced to professional SC's by the developers and writers for 4e...So the first principal is that it's not your fault you failed even if you roll low... interesting, I find this weird since even powerful protagonists in fantasy fiction a times mess up through their own hubris, flaws, etc.  Are there usually limits on this?  In other words are there guidelines as to when this is and isn't appropriate... or is it never the fault of the protagonist but alwys some external force that happened to cause him to fail at that moment?Ah, ok... I think this is what I was getting at and was the aspect of "fail forward" that I have had experience with... I've seen the guidelines above expressed by you before but never made the connection that they too fell under the "fail forward" umbrella.Is part of fail forward discussing a change in outcomes with the group?  This seems different from what you describe above... in that it's an actual revision and restart as opposed to failing forward... is there a distinction here or am I missing something?Were the success and failure parameters set before he entered this SC?  If so what were they?This is fail forward - the goal wasn't achieved (the skill challenge to escape the hobgoblins failed) but there was no roadblock. Rather, the situation transitioned into a geographically challenging combat.In neither case is their any illusionism. The players know what they are trying to achieve (via their PCs), they know whether or not they succeeded and why (they can track the combat status, or the skill challenge status) and they know why the GM is narrating the relevant consequence.What's the illusion?</blockquote>[/QUOTE]

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