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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6576021" data-attributes="member: 42582">I'm not seeing what the illusion is.If the players don't know what is to the left or the right, and can't know (short of stealing the GM's notes) - that is, if there is no play procedure whereby they can acquire this information in advance (no detection spells, rumours, etc) - then what is the illusion?I think [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION]'s post about ten or so upthread sheds some light on this - if the goal of play is exploration of the GM's backstory (eg dungeon, gnollish sacrificial practices, etc) then it would be illusionist to pretend to have a rigid backstory when in fact you're making it up.But that's not why I'm running my game.Also, on the sacrifical timing thing, no edition of D&D that I know of has rules for managing the timing of buying slaves, carrying them cross-country to a hidden temple, then sacrificing them in an attempt to turn that temple from the influence of Baphomet to the influence of Yeenoghu. So it is always GM fiat when the sacrifice takes place.The players can learn this (eg their PCs hear stories, cast Commune etc), but depending on play approach there may or may not be an expectation that they should (in my game, not really.) Even if they do, D&D doesn't manage the passage of time beyond the combat context very robustly, and I personally wouldn't run a game on that sort of clock - it is too prone to non-dramatic fizzles or GM fiat of the passage of time. In 4e it could be handled via a skill challenge, but that wasn't the case in the episode I described.So, in my game, the players couldn't have made meaningful decisions that result in them being too late. (Short of saying "Well, bugger the prisoners - we'll go and do something else.") There's no illusionism in framing them into the climax of the sacrifice - because there is no prior engagement with the mechanics or the fiction whose significance and outcome are being covertly manipulated.Again, what is the illusion?</blockquote>

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