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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6576213" data-attributes="member: 48965">Anything you ignore the details of and is taken to a high enough level view will appear the same... I mean everything in the game works the same you just roll a die for uncertain elements...  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> You are dismissing the differences in weapons that are a part of nearly every edition from AD&D/BECMI onward... because it doesn't suit your own viewpoint.  I mean are you honestly arguing that in 3e the damage a dagger does (1d4) vs. a greatsword (2d6) is insignificant?  Or that the difference between reach weapons and those that aren't doesn't matter?  Weapon vs. armor tables,  all the feats and/or powers based around specific weapons... or better yet the special effects for weapon mastery in BECMI didn't matter.... I find this line of thinking hard to buy.  The fact of the matter is that except for in it's very earliest days D&D has been a game where the weapon you use really does matter... It doesn't add to the character because the system you are choosing to use doesn't make using a musical instrument a character resource, instead one is forced to sub in broad vague skills with tenuous connections or just hand wave it... 5e however does make it add to the character because it is an actual resource that is paid for and can be used...Also I find it more than a little ironic that a fan of a game where it is okay for healing to take place from a totally mundane source... thinks that music has to be magical to affect someone... But you said if it was scary music it would be Intimidate so apparently it's not diplomacy... it's DM fiat when it comes to your system.  Now when talking about 5e musical talent is exactly what it says on the tin... how well you can actually play an instrument... I don't even understand this analogy...  No one does everything at 100% of their capacity, perfectly at all times... You roll dice because there is an element of uncertainty in the action you are taking... in the instant that you are rolling... either your swordplay or your musical talent is or isn't of a quality to defeat/move the opponent you face... your rolls decide that... and your narrative (unless you are purposefully choosing to be incoherent should fit said results).  I mean you can blame it on outside forces if you want, but of course a better swordsman or musician could o exactly what you failed to do if he rolls high enough so it still speaks to the quality you showed in that instant.  You can call it effect, though I'm not sure what "effect" is being decided besides success or failure and thus the quality of your swordplay in that moment...  I don't think failing at something and narrating it as the greatest of all time is consistent... do you?   You're assuming why music moves people... it's not always a particular message the artist sends you (and this is again why I don't like sticking it under diplomacy), as a simple example one could be moved because a particular song invokes a memory that the artist has no clue about... Or you could be impressed on a technical level because you recognize how difficult the song was... even though you don't personally feel anything when it is played... my point is music sways people for totally different reasons that can't all be placed under diplomacy... but there is no incoherence if their is a skill that represents one's musical talent at a suitably abstract level. Okay let me try to get an answer to this again... what would the background of fiddler give you a +2 in according to the 4e rules, seeing as how they are very specific this should be easy...  Of course according to your own examples earlier I would need a +2 in at least 2 skills (Diplomacy & Intimidation) and possibly more depending on what feelings I would want my music to actually invoke...right?</blockquote>

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