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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6579757" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Let us say that you're playing a dungeon exploration game and the point of play is:</p><p></p><p>"Find your way out of this maze."</p><p></p><p>A maze is a complex branching puzzle map whereby the solver must deduce the correct route to the exit. If the GM fudges the maze map such that decisions to go left or right are inconsequential because "All Roads Lead to Rome" (out of the maze), and he does it covertly while maintining the pretense of "complex branching puzzle map whereby the solver must deduce the correct route to the exit", then that is illusionism.</p><p></p><p>Now let us say the dungeon exploration game's point of play is:</p><p></p><p>"Mindfully explore this trap-infested ruin, ration resources skillfully, and leave after scoring as much treasure as possible "</p><p></p><p>If the pretense is that the players will be (a) assimilating information (which includes geographical - map - information) conveyed to them by the GM and then (b) making strategic/tactical decisions (eg how best to avoid danger and score treasure) with that geographical information as a legitimate input into their thinking, then covertly fudging the map would absolutely fall under illusionism. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That might be the case if there is a physical prop in play (eg the players gained the map via NPC or exploration and the GM physically presented the prop.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I was just being clear and extrapolating:</p><p></p><p>1) Illusionism is just covert GM force.</p><p></p><p>2) Overt GM force in some situations and at some tables may be ok if the players don't mind.</p><p></p><p>3) I don't think the overt fudging of a map falls under 2 (Overt GM force being ok). I can't think of too many cases where players wouldn't outright walk (assuming the premise of play is exploration of objective fantasy locale and player agency in observing, via GM description/resolution, orienting, deciding, and acting is on the menu/the main course). Overt GM force with a map renders such agency completely null. In such a scenario it is tantamount to "rocks fall, you die."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=82106" target="_blank">AbdulAlhazred</a></u></strong></em> and [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION]. Out of time. I'll respond to your posts soon when I am able.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6579757, member: 6696971"] Let us say that you're playing a dungeon exploration game and the point of play is: "Find your way out of this maze." A maze is a complex branching puzzle map whereby the solver must deduce the correct route to the exit. If the GM fudges the maze map such that decisions to go left or right are inconsequential because "All Roads Lead to Rome" (out of the maze), and he does it covertly while maintining the pretense of "complex branching puzzle map whereby the solver must deduce the correct route to the exit", then that is illusionism. Now let us say the dungeon exploration game's point of play is: "Mindfully explore this trap-infested ruin, ration resources skillfully, and leave after scoring as much treasure as possible " If the pretense is that the players will be (a) assimilating information (which includes geographical - map - information) conveyed to them by the GM and then (b) making strategic/tactical decisions (eg how best to avoid danger and score treasure) with that geographical information as a legitimate input into their thinking, then covertly fudging the map would absolutely fall under illusionism. That might be the case if there is a physical prop in play (eg the players gained the map via NPC or exploration and the GM physically presented the prop. I was just being clear and extrapolating: 1) Illusionism is just covert GM force. 2) Overt GM force in some situations and at some tables may be ok if the players don't mind. 3) I don't think the overt fudging of a map falls under 2 (Overt GM force being ok). I can't think of too many cases where players wouldn't outright walk (assuming the premise of play is exploration of objective fantasy locale and player agency in observing, via GM description/resolution, orienting, deciding, and acting is on the menu/the main course). Overt GM force with a map renders such agency completely null. In such a scenario it is tantamount to "rocks fall, you die." Sorry, @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=82106"]AbdulAlhazred[/URL][/U][/B][/I] and [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION]. Out of time. I'll respond to your posts soon when I am able. [/QUOTE]
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