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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6580016" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>But which one do you need to PERFORM, its not at all clear what the tool proficiency does for you, its just messy. There were a lot of questions about this kind of thing.</p><p></p><p>There's nothing really vague about it, the problem is there's simply never something a PC ever does which warrants an Investigation check. You look at things (Perception), you talk to people (various social skills), you reason (RAW INT), and that's about it. I played my high Investigation character for 6 months and I did make a couple of rolls using it 'just because', but it never felt like there was any justification for it, and that was while we were investigating a murder! Maybe its a nit, but that skill shouldn't exist, its worthless and confusing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't want overlap, I just think it would be better to have just been called 'Thievery', or maybe some list of narrower skills, but that would be more clear and useful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Tools were just included in skills. If you had a relevant skill that could use a tool, you were proficient with that tool. It only actually came up with Thieves Tools. You could have a background element that might give you a 'skill like' kind of knowledge of something, but again its more than 'tool proficiency', you were a blacksmith you know all about blacksmithing. Yes, you can use the tools, you can also do other related things, at least the background rules assert that this should be considered during play. </p><p></p><p>Its not like 5e's skill system is totally borked (at least not in terms we've discussed, there are other issues, but this isn't a 5e critique thread). It just isn't clearly thought out. I get what they were going for with the tools thing, but it was an awkward mechanic at best.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6580016, member: 82106"] But which one do you need to PERFORM, its not at all clear what the tool proficiency does for you, its just messy. There were a lot of questions about this kind of thing. There's nothing really vague about it, the problem is there's simply never something a PC ever does which warrants an Investigation check. You look at things (Perception), you talk to people (various social skills), you reason (RAW INT), and that's about it. I played my high Investigation character for 6 months and I did make a couple of rolls using it 'just because', but it never felt like there was any justification for it, and that was while we were investigating a murder! Maybe its a nit, but that skill shouldn't exist, its worthless and confusing. I don't want overlap, I just think it would be better to have just been called 'Thievery', or maybe some list of narrower skills, but that would be more clear and useful. Tools were just included in skills. If you had a relevant skill that could use a tool, you were proficient with that tool. It only actually came up with Thieves Tools. You could have a background element that might give you a 'skill like' kind of knowledge of something, but again its more than 'tool proficiency', you were a blacksmith you know all about blacksmithing. Yes, you can use the tools, you can also do other related things, at least the background rules assert that this should be considered during play. Its not like 5e's skill system is totally borked (at least not in terms we've discussed, there are other issues, but this isn't a 5e critique thread). It just isn't clearly thought out. I get what they were going for with the tools thing, but it was an awkward mechanic at best. [/QUOTE]
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