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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6580451" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>If a character hits someone with a hammer, and dazes them, that indicates that the target was somewhat disabled by the attack. If the attack instead stuns the target, that indicates that the target was badly (if temporarily) disabled by the attack.</p><p></p><p>If your concern is that the mechanics don't indicate whether the dazing or stunning reflects a head blow, or a body blow, or something else, then I'm not sure why you can't decide this the same way you decide what happens when hit points are lost (did the 6 hp of damage indicate a blow to the head or the body?).</p><p></p><p>If your concern is that sometimes someone can take a lot of damage but not be dazed, but other times take little damage yet be dazed or even stunned, I'm not sure why you can't explain that in the same way that you explain that sometime someone takes 50 hp of damage but is not killed, but other times take 1 hp of damage and dies. More generally, there is no correlation, in D&D, between amount of hp of damge inflicted by a successful attack, and the condition inflicted by that attack.</p><p></p><p>I personally think it's a little bit hard not to factor in those elements, when the only reason that the GM even has to make the decision is because the PCs are entering the market place (or whatever).</p><p></p><p>But even if we put that to one side, what you are saying is that the players are discovering the content of the GM's imagination. This is the sort of GM-driven game that 4e tends to contrast with.</p><p></p><p>What fiction do you have in mind? I've just been re-reading REH's "People of the Black Circle". In that story, here are some of the improbabilities:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* the princess enters the governor's room at the same time Conan is in there threatening him, enabling Conan to kidnap the princess;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* as Conan is fleeing the town with his prisoner, he bumps into his former ally among the hill tribes who helps him escape his pursuit;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* as Conan flees the hill tribe village after his ally has been killed, he runs down an enemy sorcerer in his path;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* as Conan is riding on through the mountain trails, he encounters both (1) his former tribal allies, now opposed to him, and (2) another enemy who is hunting him.</p><p></p><p>Those are just some of the events that make that fiction happen.</p><p></p><p>In LotR there are also improbabilities that drive the fiction, perhaps the most striking being Merry and Pippin's encounter with Treebeard.</p><p></p><p>In Star Wars, the whole story depends upon Luke - who is a jedi-in-waiting - be the one who buys R2D2 from the Jawas and therefore gets the message that sends him to Ben, the jedi master.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what fantasy fiction you have in mind that is constrained by plausibility.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In reading this, I can't help but agree with [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] upthread.</p><p></p><p>Where do you think the drama that occurs "naturally" or "legitimately", regardless of GM decision-making, will come from? The gameworld doesn't write itself.</p><p></p><p>Quite a way upthread you talked about the GM authoring a world with inbuilt excitement. That's an instance of the GM inducing drama.</p><p></p><p>You have talked about "zooming in" on the people who live exciting lives. That's an instance of the GM, in collaboration with the players, inducing drama.</p><p></p><p>The wandering monster tables are filled with orcs, aggressive snakes and spiders, demons, etc, rather than bunny rabbits and candy floss. That is the GM inducing drama (or, more accurately, conflict or the threat of it).</p><p></p><p>There is nothing that is more "natural" about writing all the drama into the initial world-state and the random encounter tables. Although that particular approach does make the GM's influence on the content of the shared fiction much greater.</p><p></p><p>As to whether mechanics can promote story, absolutely. I think most obviously, mechanics can affect pacing. For instance, mechanics that mandate lots of record-keeping between scenes of conflict impede dramatic pacing. 4e's healing mechanics for PC support dramatic pacing, by creating crisis in the rising action, resolved by decisive deployment of player resources at the moment of climax.</p><p></p><p>Pacing may not be an important factor in your games, but it is important to many RPGers, and different RPGs handle it in different ways.</p><p></p><p>Mechanics can promote story in other ways too, of course. For instance, a mechanic that gives a player a bonus to a roll when his/her PC engages something of value to that PC is likely to produce more such events. A mechanic that obliges the GM to narrate failure in terms of twists or complications rather than simple inadequate performance is more likely to produce rising action. Etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6580451, member: 42582"] If a character hits someone with a hammer, and dazes them, that indicates that the target was somewhat disabled by the attack. If the attack instead stuns the target, that indicates that the target was badly (if temporarily) disabled by the attack. If your concern is that the mechanics don't indicate whether the dazing or stunning reflects a head blow, or a body blow, or something else, then I'm not sure why you can't decide this the same way you decide what happens when hit points are lost (did the 6 hp of damage indicate a blow to the head or the body?). If your concern is that sometimes someone can take a lot of damage but not be dazed, but other times take little damage yet be dazed or even stunned, I'm not sure why you can't explain that in the same way that you explain that sometime someone takes 50 hp of damage but is not killed, but other times take 1 hp of damage and dies. More generally, there is no correlation, in D&D, between amount of hp of damge inflicted by a successful attack, and the condition inflicted by that attack. I personally think it's a little bit hard not to factor in those elements, when the only reason that the GM even has to make the decision is because the PCs are entering the market place (or whatever). But even if we put that to one side, what you are saying is that the players are discovering the content of the GM's imagination. This is the sort of GM-driven game that 4e tends to contrast with. What fiction do you have in mind? I've just been re-reading REH's "People of the Black Circle". In that story, here are some of the improbabilities: [indent]* the princess enters the governor's room at the same time Conan is in there threatening him, enabling Conan to kidnap the princess; * as Conan is fleeing the town with his prisoner, he bumps into his former ally among the hill tribes who helps him escape his pursuit; * as Conan flees the hill tribe village after his ally has been killed, he runs down an enemy sorcerer in his path; * as Conan is riding on through the mountain trails, he encounters both (1) his former tribal allies, now opposed to him, and (2) another enemy who is hunting him.[/indent] Those are just some of the events that make that fiction happen. In LotR there are also improbabilities that drive the fiction, perhaps the most striking being Merry and Pippin's encounter with Treebeard. In Star Wars, the whole story depends upon Luke - who is a jedi-in-waiting - be the one who buys R2D2 from the Jawas and therefore gets the message that sends him to Ben, the jedi master. I'm not sure what fantasy fiction you have in mind that is constrained by plausibility. In reading this, I can't help but agree with [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] upthread. Where do you think the drama that occurs "naturally" or "legitimately", regardless of GM decision-making, will come from? The gameworld doesn't write itself. Quite a way upthread you talked about the GM authoring a world with inbuilt excitement. That's an instance of the GM inducing drama. You have talked about "zooming in" on the people who live exciting lives. That's an instance of the GM, in collaboration with the players, inducing drama. The wandering monster tables are filled with orcs, aggressive snakes and spiders, demons, etc, rather than bunny rabbits and candy floss. That is the GM inducing drama (or, more accurately, conflict or the threat of it). There is nothing that is more "natural" about writing all the drama into the initial world-state and the random encounter tables. Although that particular approach does make the GM's influence on the content of the shared fiction much greater. As to whether mechanics can promote story, absolutely. I think most obviously, mechanics can affect pacing. For instance, mechanics that mandate lots of record-keeping between scenes of conflict impede dramatic pacing. 4e's healing mechanics for PC support dramatic pacing, by creating crisis in the rising action, resolved by decisive deployment of player resources at the moment of climax. Pacing may not be an important factor in your games, but it is important to many RPGers, and different RPGs handle it in different ways. Mechanics can promote story in other ways too, of course. For instance, a mechanic that gives a player a bonus to a roll when his/her PC engages something of value to that PC is likely to produce more such events. A mechanic that obliges the GM to narrate failure in terms of twists or complications rather than simple inadequate performance is more likely to produce rising action. Etc. [/QUOTE]
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