Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Best Thing from 4E
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6580665" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Hasn't this injunction been violated as soon as we focus on <em>these</em> characters rather than some others? Why are we focusing on them? Because they're the PCs!</p><p></p><p>I've bolded the last sentence, because it is not found in [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s quote from the DW rules.</p><p></p><p>The quoted rules say "As the players come into conflict with that setting and its denizens, action is inevitable. You’ll honestly portray the repercussions of that action." There is nothing said there about it being "a world where conflict tends to happen." And in fact, it says "don't plan too hard". The GM is expected to respond to what the players do, and narrate the world in response.</p><p></p><p>This is how protagonistic RPGing works (what Manbearcat has been calling "story now" play, following Ron Edwards's terminology).</p><p></p><p>And to see how the actions that they declare for their characters "change the world you’re portraying". Dungeon World is oriented in just about the opposite direction from the sort of pre-planned game and world that you are advocating in this thread.</p><p></p><p>Nonsense. Roleplaying existed before 2nd ed AD&D, and metagaming was part and parcel of the game. The players were expected to anticipate and outwit the GM. No one can play a module like White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors in the way they were written without metagaming. (At the barest minimum: understanding that these dungeons have been designed by a GM to test and outwit players.)</p><p></p><p>You may not like metagaming - that's your prerogative. But it is absolutely part and parcel of a range of approaches to RPGing.</p><p></p><p>Well, upthread you said (post 735) that "You don't need mechanics to promote story." I was responding to that.</p><p></p><p>If you want a story in your game, the alternative to using mechanics to promote it is GM force - typically in the form of illusionism. Games like Dungeon World, Burning Wheel, HeroWars/Quest, and (I would say) 4e avoid the need for illusionism precisely because they have mechanics that promote story (pacing mechanics, resolution mechanics, scene-framing mechanics, etc).</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I've cross-posted with [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]. He makes the same point I do - that "portraying the world, honestly" is not about world-prep or pre-game. It's an instruction to the GM about what to do during action resolution.</p><p></p><p>Much of the DW advice woud work equally well for Burning Wheel, another game in which the shared gameworld is expected to emerge as a <em>product</em> of play, not be pre-written by the GM as an input into play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6580665, member: 42582"] Hasn't this injunction been violated as soon as we focus on [I]these[/I] characters rather than some others? Why are we focusing on them? Because they're the PCs! I've bolded the last sentence, because it is not found in [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s quote from the DW rules. The quoted rules say "As the players come into conflict with that setting and its denizens, action is inevitable. You’ll honestly portray the repercussions of that action." There is nothing said there about it being "a world where conflict tends to happen." And in fact, it says "don't plan too hard". The GM is expected to respond to what the players do, and narrate the world in response. This is how protagonistic RPGing works (what Manbearcat has been calling "story now" play, following Ron Edwards's terminology). And to see how the actions that they declare for their characters "change the world you’re portraying". Dungeon World is oriented in just about the opposite direction from the sort of pre-planned game and world that you are advocating in this thread. Nonsense. Roleplaying existed before 2nd ed AD&D, and metagaming was part and parcel of the game. The players were expected to anticipate and outwit the GM. No one can play a module like White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors in the way they were written without metagaming. (At the barest minimum: understanding that these dungeons have been designed by a GM to test and outwit players.) You may not like metagaming - that's your prerogative. But it is absolutely part and parcel of a range of approaches to RPGing. Well, upthread you said (post 735) that "You don't need mechanics to promote story." I was responding to that. If you want a story in your game, the alternative to using mechanics to promote it is GM force - typically in the form of illusionism. Games like Dungeon World, Burning Wheel, HeroWars/Quest, and (I would say) 4e avoid the need for illusionism precisely because they have mechanics that promote story (pacing mechanics, resolution mechanics, scene-framing mechanics, etc). EDIT: I've cross-posted with [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]. He makes the same point I do - that "portraying the world, honestly" is not about world-prep or pre-game. It's an instruction to the GM about what to do during action resolution. Much of the DW advice woud work equally well for Burning Wheel, another game in which the shared gameworld is expected to emerge as a [I]product[/I] of play, not be pre-written by the GM as an input into play. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Best Thing from 4E
Top