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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6580910" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>OK, I've been thinking back, and I think I begin to understand how this whole concept you have evolved. See, way back in the old days, before 1974, Gygax and all that crew were playing WARGAMES, but they weren't just ANY wargame, Gary was refereeing campaigns fought with armies of fantasy miniatures. Dave Arneson was busy running/playing 'Kriegspiel' type games, refereed RP scenarios with the players having various roles. Importantly in NEITHER type of game was there a 'party'. These were zero-sum competitive wargames, you could win or lose, and the referee was there to provide the backdrop, the setting in which this would happen.</p><p></p><p>There was no need in these games for the referee to be neutral about the WORLD vs 'the players', he just had to not favor one player over another. That was the job of the referee, to adjudicate that no, indeed, the cutting at Antietam was too steep and columns of soldiers couldn't march up or down the sides. Secondarily the role of world creator came into existence when these games transferred to a fantasy realm. The world plainly had to be 'balanced' just like everything else, so that the various players had a chance to succeed in the campaign, and defeat each other, or at least field a force in battles that were played out that was worthy of the bother.</p><p></p><p>Eventually Arneson folded the concepts from the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail into a 'kriegspiel' wherein various characters could delve into the dungeons of Blackmoor and gain treasure, etc which they could use in other aspects of the campaign, to progress their characters. Gygax of course took up this idea and extended it somewhat, but the core premise was the same in all cases.</p><p></p><p>The thing is, there was never an assumption that the players were all on one team. As it evolved some 'team ethics' came into play, as the dungeon itself became the focus of play and the main antagonist the rivalries and opposing goals of the player characters were made somewhat subservient, so that the thief didn't rip off the cleric, and the cleric healed the thief, at least while they were in the dungeon. Again, the role of the DM was to be a neutral arbiter between the player's characters. </p><p></p><p>This has only later become conflated with a role of 'running a neutral world' as you put it. That was never part of the original design. The only social contract here was that the DM wouldn't screw over the players by throwing things into the PC's paths that wasn't either already indicated (and thus able to be anticipated, scouted for, divined, or researched, or that was behind a door and thus avoidable, or was 'the random luck of the dice'). This convention NEVER extended to a 'neutral plot' where only the players will could move the action and nothing ever happened 'because it would be fun'. I'm pretty sure Gygax himself would laugh with amusement at that notion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6580910, member: 82106"] OK, I've been thinking back, and I think I begin to understand how this whole concept you have evolved. See, way back in the old days, before 1974, Gygax and all that crew were playing WARGAMES, but they weren't just ANY wargame, Gary was refereeing campaigns fought with armies of fantasy miniatures. Dave Arneson was busy running/playing 'Kriegspiel' type games, refereed RP scenarios with the players having various roles. Importantly in NEITHER type of game was there a 'party'. These were zero-sum competitive wargames, you could win or lose, and the referee was there to provide the backdrop, the setting in which this would happen. There was no need in these games for the referee to be neutral about the WORLD vs 'the players', he just had to not favor one player over another. That was the job of the referee, to adjudicate that no, indeed, the cutting at Antietam was too steep and columns of soldiers couldn't march up or down the sides. Secondarily the role of world creator came into existence when these games transferred to a fantasy realm. The world plainly had to be 'balanced' just like everything else, so that the various players had a chance to succeed in the campaign, and defeat each other, or at least field a force in battles that were played out that was worthy of the bother. Eventually Arneson folded the concepts from the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail into a 'kriegspiel' wherein various characters could delve into the dungeons of Blackmoor and gain treasure, etc which they could use in other aspects of the campaign, to progress their characters. Gygax of course took up this idea and extended it somewhat, but the core premise was the same in all cases. The thing is, there was never an assumption that the players were all on one team. As it evolved some 'team ethics' came into play, as the dungeon itself became the focus of play and the main antagonist the rivalries and opposing goals of the player characters were made somewhat subservient, so that the thief didn't rip off the cleric, and the cleric healed the thief, at least while they were in the dungeon. Again, the role of the DM was to be a neutral arbiter between the player's characters. This has only later become conflated with a role of 'running a neutral world' as you put it. That was never part of the original design. The only social contract here was that the DM wouldn't screw over the players by throwing things into the PC's paths that wasn't either already indicated (and thus able to be anticipated, scouted for, divined, or researched, or that was behind a door and thus avoidable, or was 'the random luck of the dice'). This convention NEVER extended to a 'neutral plot' where only the players will could move the action and nothing ever happened 'because it would be fun'. I'm pretty sure Gygax himself would laugh with amusement at that notion. [/QUOTE]
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