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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6581468" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yes, I think the presentation and exposition of 4e was anywhere from pretty good to woefully inadequate on various topics. It certainly could have been better. </p><p></p><p>Your comments on the pitfalls of process-sim (and the reference to Classic Traveller, a game thoroughly steeped in process-sim) was pretty cogent. I'd only like to add that ironically Traveller was a good game for teaching me early on the benefits of the simpler and lighter rules. While it isn't exactly a 'rules lite' game it does actually have a pretty simple and uniform core mechanics with very few frills. There's a LARGE infrastructure of 'detail generators' and subsystems for things like starships, but at its core was this simple engine. In a way Traveller was a game that was born too early. It probably would have succeeded with a lot of us much better had it been born in a more modern era with graded levels of success, fail forward, and some 'plot point' mechanics. That and a chargen system that injected some story in amongst the bare numbers. I'm still fond of it in a way, though I don't think I would play it in its existing form anymore, largely for the reasons you've outlined.</p><p></p><p>Presentation is quite important, yes. You touched on the visual presentation of information in 4e, which uses a very different theory and style than previous editions. I'm sure it was a factor in some player's acceptance or rejection of the game. It suited me well, so I liked the change, and since I wasn't really particularly an active D&D player at the time of 4e's advent, and didn't have any investment in 3e at all, FOR ME there really wasn't anything much to unlearn, just old 2e-era understandings of the game. Those did take a while to really crumble.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6581468, member: 82106"] Yes, I think the presentation and exposition of 4e was anywhere from pretty good to woefully inadequate on various topics. It certainly could have been better. Your comments on the pitfalls of process-sim (and the reference to Classic Traveller, a game thoroughly steeped in process-sim) was pretty cogent. I'd only like to add that ironically Traveller was a good game for teaching me early on the benefits of the simpler and lighter rules. While it isn't exactly a 'rules lite' game it does actually have a pretty simple and uniform core mechanics with very few frills. There's a LARGE infrastructure of 'detail generators' and subsystems for things like starships, but at its core was this simple engine. In a way Traveller was a game that was born too early. It probably would have succeeded with a lot of us much better had it been born in a more modern era with graded levels of success, fail forward, and some 'plot point' mechanics. That and a chargen system that injected some story in amongst the bare numbers. I'm still fond of it in a way, though I don't think I would play it in its existing form anymore, largely for the reasons you've outlined. Presentation is quite important, yes. You touched on the visual presentation of information in 4e, which uses a very different theory and style than previous editions. I'm sure it was a factor in some player's acceptance or rejection of the game. It suited me well, so I liked the change, and since I wasn't really particularly an active D&D player at the time of 4e's advent, and didn't have any investment in 3e at all, FOR ME there really wasn't anything much to unlearn, just old 2e-era understandings of the game. Those did take a while to really crumble. [/QUOTE]
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