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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6581654" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I never really read them, but some of the ideas in the preview books did sound like they were a little more 'out there' or more boldly put than what the game ended up with. I think when a bunch of editors and such get hold of a product things tend to get diluted a bit. </p><p></p><p>I must say, I never really was that sold on the 4e version of PoL. I thought it would be much more interesting as a sort of 'dark fairy tale' version of the world where your 'point of light' is the only one you can be sure even still exists. Oh, maybe now and then you get some rumors of someone else out there, but it might be no better than some survivors from a town down the road straggling in after the last contact was lost 10 years ago. That kind of thing. The PoL they ended up with didn't seem to be really any different from the old Keep on the Borderlands, there's not a lot of civilization around, but trade and travel are still moderately routine, if a bit dangerous, and 'the wilderness' is rife with monsters, but there's still lots of towns and such. </p><p></p><p>Hmmmm. This is interesting but, epic tier aside, I never was really able to understand why people found this to be the case. I know I found it pretty easy to generate some really vicious encounters without a lot of trouble. Maybe you just had a really hard-core group of optimizers to contend with? It was certainly possible to warp the curve of 4e enough that it could start to degrade the game experience. Beyond that epic solos really were no challenge with a decently on-the-ball group, and were just dull if the group wasn't. I always thought of solo as the 'gonzo levels' anyway though. In any case I don't know about things like skills and whatnot, I never saw the players try things like just breaking through all the walls or something like that. Maybe those rules weren't well-calibrated, but I think maybe they were just calibrated for casual use. The DM and players were perhaps expected to not push that overly far, something that might be considered a fault in game mechanics, but is pretty common in RPGs.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, that's again interesting, but I still don't really grasp how the PCs were so far beyond the game world. Again, maybe in epic things can get a bit that way, and epic doesn't IMHO 'just work' out of the box, you do have to put something into it. I'd have to personally say though that, as you have noted too, it held together pretty well when measured against other games. </p><p></p><p>That being said, I then have to look back at 3rd and realize that the same problem also existed there -even if it existed in different ways.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, 3.xE is like shooting fish in a barrel, much past 5th level it is completely out to lunch. You can play out to say maybe level 12 if the players are VERY cooperative and actively hold back, but it is really pretty borked when you look close. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I thought 4e put a bit of a curb on some of the really outlandish PC abilities, that is the most outlandish spells mostly. </p><p></p><p>I would have liked to see the disease track mechanic used for a lot more things in 4th. I feel it could have covered a lot more situations and it could have added a level of granularity to 4th -making the system appear a bit more grounded- without adding much more in the way of bookkeeping. For example, instead of saves being so much of a binary thing (pass/fail,) saves could have been handled using a track. </p><p>[/quote]</p><p>Hmmmm, interesting concept, I wonder if this can be fleshed out and if it would hold up? </p><p></p><p>Though here I wonder if what you really want is a progressive effect/success/failure system of some sort that does all of this, can be an SC, can represent non-binary success and conditions, etc. Another thing to consider how it would all go together. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this kind of jibes with my '4e needs to be understood and reanalyzed, and a 4.5e would be quite fruitful' stance. I am not sure if we would entirely agree on the things that should have been done to it, but I bet we could agree on a bunch of them.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6581654, member: 82106"] I never really read them, but some of the ideas in the preview books did sound like they were a little more 'out there' or more boldly put than what the game ended up with. I think when a bunch of editors and such get hold of a product things tend to get diluted a bit. I must say, I never really was that sold on the 4e version of PoL. I thought it would be much more interesting as a sort of 'dark fairy tale' version of the world where your 'point of light' is the only one you can be sure even still exists. Oh, maybe now and then you get some rumors of someone else out there, but it might be no better than some survivors from a town down the road straggling in after the last contact was lost 10 years ago. That kind of thing. The PoL they ended up with didn't seem to be really any different from the old Keep on the Borderlands, there's not a lot of civilization around, but trade and travel are still moderately routine, if a bit dangerous, and 'the wilderness' is rife with monsters, but there's still lots of towns and such. Hmmmm. This is interesting but, epic tier aside, I never was really able to understand why people found this to be the case. I know I found it pretty easy to generate some really vicious encounters without a lot of trouble. Maybe you just had a really hard-core group of optimizers to contend with? It was certainly possible to warp the curve of 4e enough that it could start to degrade the game experience. Beyond that epic solos really were no challenge with a decently on-the-ball group, and were just dull if the group wasn't. I always thought of solo as the 'gonzo levels' anyway though. In any case I don't know about things like skills and whatnot, I never saw the players try things like just breaking through all the walls or something like that. Maybe those rules weren't well-calibrated, but I think maybe they were just calibrated for casual use. The DM and players were perhaps expected to not push that overly far, something that might be considered a fault in game mechanics, but is pretty common in RPGs. Yeah, that's again interesting, but I still don't really grasp how the PCs were so far beyond the game world. Again, maybe in epic things can get a bit that way, and epic doesn't IMHO 'just work' out of the box, you do have to put something into it. I'd have to personally say though that, as you have noted too, it held together pretty well when measured against other games. That being said, I then have to look back at 3rd and realize that the same problem also existed there -even if it existed in different ways. [/quote] Yeah, 3.xE is like shooting fish in a barrel, much past 5th level it is completely out to lunch. You can play out to say maybe level 12 if the players are VERY cooperative and actively hold back, but it is really pretty borked when you look close. Yeah, I thought 4e put a bit of a curb on some of the really outlandish PC abilities, that is the most outlandish spells mostly. I would have liked to see the disease track mechanic used for a lot more things in 4th. I feel it could have covered a lot more situations and it could have added a level of granularity to 4th -making the system appear a bit more grounded- without adding much more in the way of bookkeeping. For example, instead of saves being so much of a binary thing (pass/fail,) saves could have been handled using a track. [/quote] Hmmmm, interesting concept, I wonder if this can be fleshed out and if it would hold up? Though here I wonder if what you really want is a progressive effect/success/failure system of some sort that does all of this, can be an SC, can represent non-binary success and conditions, etc. Another thing to consider how it would all go together. I think this kind of jibes with my '4e needs to be understood and reanalyzed, and a 4.5e would be quite fruitful' stance. I am not sure if we would entirely agree on the things that should have been done to it, but I bet we could agree on a bunch of them. [/QUOTE]
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