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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6582901" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, taking people's descriptions of their experiences at face value, which I think we pretty much have to do, you are almost proven to be correct simply by so reading them. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, I don't really disagree, but what seemed to me to happen was that when I kept, at first, endlessly placing the PCs in these 2e-esque encounters that had marginal amounts of plot and low stakes the players indeed were faced with something like you describe, they might as well use the 2W + whatever encounter power first, and then hold onto the 3W + whatever daily and spam the better of their two at-wills, and maybe trigger something beyond that when some monster got lucky or they chanced into a situation where it was really useful.</p><p></p><p>What totally changed that was playing the game as an action-adventure plot-oriented game. I didn't bother with ridiculous for-ordained low plot encounters. If the orcs at the mine entrance were just mooks that were there because OF COURSE the orcs would guard the entrance, then they were just minions, and maybe the one guy that was supposed to run and give the alarm was a standard monster, and maybe I'd bring it up to level with a trap or some trick of terrain or something that the bad guys could pull, but basically that kind of thing could be played out without needing to slap down minis, or even just described with the players saying OK, yeah, I blow my encounter power to make sure the guy about to blow the horn goes down!</p><p></p><p>Then the MEAT encounters can be thrilling and plot significant. The encounter with the goblin shaman triggers a huge raging mine fire and then the PCs have to grab the McGuffin, leap into a mine car and get chased by the goblins as the mine starts to cave in around them all. Do they successfully throw the switch and send the goblins careening into the bottomless shaft? Do they not duck in time and some of them get knocked out of the car and have to try to leap into the car with the goblins and toss them all out? etc. </p><p></p><p>In that sort of play, powers are great, you can rely on them when the situation comes up where they're good, and you can use your skills and page 42 the rest of the time. You'll still use the powers a LOT, but the situations are so varied that it doesn't matter much. </p><p></p><p>This is what I mean by what 4e is really all about, what its strength is. Its really quite strong in this kind of play. The characters are tough and have a lot of resources, but they can be knocked back and threatened. It doesn't rely overly on elaborate pre-arranged plans by the PCs (though sometimes they can be quite fun too). Its a romp. I think it can be improved a bunch, but for this kind of purpose the 4e powers work well and don't seem terribly restrictive.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6582901, member: 82106"] Yeah, taking people's descriptions of their experiences at face value, which I think we pretty much have to do, you are almost proven to be correct simply by so reading them. Anyway, I don't really disagree, but what seemed to me to happen was that when I kept, at first, endlessly placing the PCs in these 2e-esque encounters that had marginal amounts of plot and low stakes the players indeed were faced with something like you describe, they might as well use the 2W + whatever encounter power first, and then hold onto the 3W + whatever daily and spam the better of their two at-wills, and maybe trigger something beyond that when some monster got lucky or they chanced into a situation where it was really useful. What totally changed that was playing the game as an action-adventure plot-oriented game. I didn't bother with ridiculous for-ordained low plot encounters. If the orcs at the mine entrance were just mooks that were there because OF COURSE the orcs would guard the entrance, then they were just minions, and maybe the one guy that was supposed to run and give the alarm was a standard monster, and maybe I'd bring it up to level with a trap or some trick of terrain or something that the bad guys could pull, but basically that kind of thing could be played out without needing to slap down minis, or even just described with the players saying OK, yeah, I blow my encounter power to make sure the guy about to blow the horn goes down! Then the MEAT encounters can be thrilling and plot significant. The encounter with the goblin shaman triggers a huge raging mine fire and then the PCs have to grab the McGuffin, leap into a mine car and get chased by the goblins as the mine starts to cave in around them all. Do they successfully throw the switch and send the goblins careening into the bottomless shaft? Do they not duck in time and some of them get knocked out of the car and have to try to leap into the car with the goblins and toss them all out? etc. In that sort of play, powers are great, you can rely on them when the situation comes up where they're good, and you can use your skills and page 42 the rest of the time. You'll still use the powers a LOT, but the situations are so varied that it doesn't matter much. This is what I mean by what 4e is really all about, what its strength is. Its really quite strong in this kind of play. The characters are tough and have a lot of resources, but they can be knocked back and threatened. It doesn't rely overly on elaborate pre-arranged plans by the PCs (though sometimes they can be quite fun too). Its a romp. I think it can be improved a bunch, but for this kind of purpose the 4e powers work well and don't seem terribly restrictive. [/QUOTE]
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