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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6594944" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>It isn't about the single instance of this encounter. The assertion is that THE WHOLE PATTERN of arranging the game world to appeal to the interests of the players and present dramatic situations (or any other non-naturalistic play process) so undermines verisimilitude that the world cannot seem authentic enough to present a pleasing play experience. The player is unable to role play because the experience is of an arranged story, not of a character going about his or her routine (however dramatic that might be). </p><p></p><p>Beyond that is the bias objection, which as I stated in my last post, speaks to a more gamist aspect of process-sim, that it is ideally a process in which the DM's judgment is engaged as little as possible, thus insuring not realism, but a lack of bias. Bias in this case being measured as something like "if I ran 100 parties through this adventure their outcomes would distribute around some typical results" and no one of them would be able to say "you made it harder for us!" just perhaps "we got unlucky." </p><p></p><p>I think the two sides talk past each other at this point. The narrativist points out, quite logically, that his scenes are framed in narratively coherent terms and present elements asked for by the players, so they cannot possibly be 'biased' or 'railroading'. The naturalist points out that the sum total of the plot generated in this fashion is a long series of coincidences. </p><p></p><p>I think the whole debate has kind of reached its logical nadir. Everyone's position has been thoroughly expostulated and rejected by the other side as, essentially, not matching with their preferred agenda. There are some issues here still, primarily the question of what really can ever be said to be naturalistic, but in effect they're only answered by 'what suites you'.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6594944, member: 82106"] It isn't about the single instance of this encounter. The assertion is that THE WHOLE PATTERN of arranging the game world to appeal to the interests of the players and present dramatic situations (or any other non-naturalistic play process) so undermines verisimilitude that the world cannot seem authentic enough to present a pleasing play experience. The player is unable to role play because the experience is of an arranged story, not of a character going about his or her routine (however dramatic that might be). Beyond that is the bias objection, which as I stated in my last post, speaks to a more gamist aspect of process-sim, that it is ideally a process in which the DM's judgment is engaged as little as possible, thus insuring not realism, but a lack of bias. Bias in this case being measured as something like "if I ran 100 parties through this adventure their outcomes would distribute around some typical results" and no one of them would be able to say "you made it harder for us!" just perhaps "we got unlucky." I think the two sides talk past each other at this point. The narrativist points out, quite logically, that his scenes are framed in narratively coherent terms and present elements asked for by the players, so they cannot possibly be 'biased' or 'railroading'. The naturalist points out that the sum total of the plot generated in this fashion is a long series of coincidences. I think the whole debate has kind of reached its logical nadir. Everyone's position has been thoroughly expostulated and rejected by the other side as, essentially, not matching with their preferred agenda. There are some issues here still, primarily the question of what really can ever be said to be naturalistic, but in effect they're only answered by 'what suites you'. [/QUOTE]
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