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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6596612" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I just disagree, there's no loss of agency involved in how the DM frames the situations the PCs find themselves in, unless such framing is directly subverting decisions and/or mechanical results. You seem to feel somehow that the ONLY input allowed into the fiction of the game is what the players decide to do. That is simply ridiculous to be frank. Just because the DM makes some decisions doesn't step on player agency, they don't own all the agency in the game! The DM is a participant as well, not just in the authoring of the world but in the playing of the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how a game-mechanical decision can have no impact on the story level. Can you give me an example of such a thing?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm mystified as to what the difference is here, I am PRIMARILY concerned with the narrative, not game mechanics. I want mechanics that don't interfere with, and actively support, interesting and fun narrative. They should allow the players to mechanically express narrative elements because, well, why not? If the mechanics DIDN'T support the narrative that you like, then there'd be no reason to use those mechanics! I mean they might be good from a purely gamist viewpoint, but in that case I'd think you'd adapt the narrative to them instead of vice versa, which for that agenda is fine.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, your definitions of force and meaning remain so incredibly idiosyncratic that it is really tough to even fathom what you're getting at sometimes. Its not 'force' just because the DM introduces something that didn't follow directly from a PC decision in the fiction, and its not 'meaningful' when a PLAYER makes an uninformed choice. Its possible for a character to be ignorant and not the player however. If you want to narrate characters taking blind guesses, this is usually the best way to do it from a purely narrativist standpoint. However, I think we all like a good game, and sometimes we DO enjoy a pure wager. However, I think its best if such wagers are made on throws of the dice, as its then more of a pure game. I don't think the game should mostly consist of that however, and its not inherently superior to other techniques. IMHO the fetishistic worship of 'natural process' just degrades the game, its overrated.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6596612, member: 82106"] I just disagree, there's no loss of agency involved in how the DM frames the situations the PCs find themselves in, unless such framing is directly subverting decisions and/or mechanical results. You seem to feel somehow that the ONLY input allowed into the fiction of the game is what the players decide to do. That is simply ridiculous to be frank. Just because the DM makes some decisions doesn't step on player agency, they don't own all the agency in the game! The DM is a participant as well, not just in the authoring of the world but in the playing of the game. I don't see how a game-mechanical decision can have no impact on the story level. Can you give me an example of such a thing? I'm mystified as to what the difference is here, I am PRIMARILY concerned with the narrative, not game mechanics. I want mechanics that don't interfere with, and actively support, interesting and fun narrative. They should allow the players to mechanically express narrative elements because, well, why not? If the mechanics DIDN'T support the narrative that you like, then there'd be no reason to use those mechanics! I mean they might be good from a purely gamist viewpoint, but in that case I'd think you'd adapt the narrative to them instead of vice versa, which for that agenda is fine. Anyway, your definitions of force and meaning remain so incredibly idiosyncratic that it is really tough to even fathom what you're getting at sometimes. Its not 'force' just because the DM introduces something that didn't follow directly from a PC decision in the fiction, and its not 'meaningful' when a PLAYER makes an uninformed choice. Its possible for a character to be ignorant and not the player however. If you want to narrate characters taking blind guesses, this is usually the best way to do it from a purely narrativist standpoint. However, I think we all like a good game, and sometimes we DO enjoy a pure wager. However, I think its best if such wagers are made on throws of the dice, as its then more of a pure game. I don't think the game should mostly consist of that however, and its not inherently superior to other techniques. IMHO the fetishistic worship of 'natural process' just degrades the game, its overrated. [/QUOTE]
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