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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7010826" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, this is the problem with talking about 1e, because there's no really coherent SYSTEM of rules. There's a rules system for encounter distance, one for surprise (which is integrated with the distance one), one for pursuit and evasion, a set of 'thief abilities', etc. NONE of these are written in common terms and there's no explanation of if or how the various elements of them might apply to each other, and they each make a number of statements and assumptions. So its not AT ALL correct for you to be telling me that I'm wrong about some sort of rules 'as written'. You, nor I, have any idea if Gygax intended (or even THOUGHT ABOUT) whether p68 applies to characters sneaking around. In any case, my analysis of this is that its a discussion of the distances at which you can detect (and thus track) a FLEEING party, not one trying to be quiet except as noted under noise. And note that this 'relatively quiet movement' IS pretty stealthy, you get no chance to detect it beyond 30', which is a pretty short distance. Recall above that encounter distances underground are 50-100 feet, or 40' in case one party is surprised by the other. This means by p68 a quietly moving party can reach encounter distance before being detected, no checks required (though they would have to achieve surprise, or terrain would have to favor them, which are not guaranteed). In any case, by being properly tactical you can certainly scout effectively. Of course a thief will have added options, though a ranger will actually be FAR better (since he can achieve surprise most of the time, so he will effectively ALWAYS get within 40' unless there's some mitigating circumstance without being detected). Yes, that's correct, you can't Hide in Shadows WHILE being observed, though again what I've stated before should allow for you to get within as little as 40' of an opponent without being observed, and then hide, at which point you ARE 'in shadow' and can't be seen, period, assuming you pass your check. There is no actual rule about where shadows are or aren't, so presumably under dungeon lighting conditions you're pretty much set. If someone drops a continual light on your location, well, maybe that's different, but the rules don't actually address what you do then.Yes, a thief makes that potentially 0. Nobody is arguing thieves don't have some extraordinary ability, but its not quite what you are making it out to be. Its really the situations where nobody else could TRY that thieves get to do their thing. Well, the sheer unreliability of thief skills is a whole other topic. I think games like 4e have advanced FAR FAR BEYOND the days of 1e and this is where it really shows.I can't speak for what was in your area. I have already spoken for what was in the rule books. Its very well known to all that 1e is open to a wide range of interpretations and easy misinterpretations. I've given you the stock interpretation, such as it is. My character can move relatively quietly and expect not to be heard more than 30' away! I don't think you can argue that. Likewise if a character is in an area where enemies cannot see, then they won't see him, period. This is just common sense and isn't even stated as a rule, except in the sense that all creatures and light sources have rules defining how much they can see, and we can assume that people can figure that out in ordinary outdoor settings without rules. 'nuff said on that.</blockquote>

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