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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2733151" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>It doesn't skew the data if it is fairly consistently an additional advantage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I stated why I broke it out. Increasing the DC occurs on a lot of augmented powers. That's REAL significant in game mechanics terms.</p><p></p><p>It's the equivalent of an additional feat Heighten Power on many of the powers.</p><p></p><p>You do not get to choose whether to increase the DC when augmenting or augment something else, you get both.</p><p></p><p>Hence, an additional advantage equivalent to a feat in this case.</p><p></p><p>My yardstick tends to be whether something is unique and has the power of a feat or the power of a special ability.</p><p></p><p>I added the fact that it is equivalent to Heighten Spell for free, just to clarify that it is because the Psion is getting a free feat for many powers that this is a merit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, he can get the constantly on ones with effort. And, he cannot use the non-constantly on ones.</p><p></p><p>But effectively what this boils down to is that the Psion get the Wild Talent pre-requisite feat for these for free.</p><p></p><p>How can that NOT be considered an advantage for the Psion?</p><p></p><p>If one class needs two feats to get something and another needs one, the class that needs one has an advantage.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I will continue to maintain that every single time one class or the other gets a feat or gets the use of a feat without purchasing the feat, it's a merit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>+8 is a serious advantage outside of normal game parameters. I won't discuss this anymore.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You ignore the fact that you have to affect an opponent to do these. Schism or Quicken Power are hard to disrupt and apply to the manifester.</p><p></p><p>The Quicken Power feat is huge at high level. And, the Psion also has powers which either Quicken by default (Intellect Fortress) or can be Quicken as part of the power.</p><p></p><p>Extra personal actions is different than taking out a foe so the enemies have less actions.</p><p></p><p>Psions can more easily manifest more than once per round. Sorcerers rarely can cast more than once per round. That is what this merit is about.</p><p></p><p>Apples and apples.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good point.</p><p></p><p>Does the Psion have single target no save powers limited to a set number of hit points (i.e. typically only useful against lower level opponents) at high level that inconvenience an opponent for a number of rounds?</p><p></p><p>Psions can get Microcosm at 9th. It is permanent shy of magical countering (like Power Word Kill). It can also affect multiple creatures. So, it is more powerful than Power Word Kill for all intents and purposes.</p><p></p><p>Power Word Blind and Stun are inconvenience spells. The first does not prevent the opponent from taking actions, it just limits how useful his actions are. The second stuns him. Potent, but many other powers are just as potent, just in different ways. And, there are immunities to these (such as having high hit points, Spell Resistance, being immune to mind effecting spells, etc.).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was actually going to add the Power Word series of spells to the list until I noticed that Microcosm negated and is even better than Power Word Kill. I'm trying to be impartial here, but one or two spells which do have defenses is not a big deal.</p><p></p><p>Find an entire group of spells. For example, I just thought of one. Illusion spells. Psions cannot do illusions. Advantage: Sorcerers.</p><p></p><p>I'll add this to the list.</p><p></p><p>Both Psions and Sorcerers can effectively do all of the other schools of magic.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And, we can nitpick individual powers or spellls all day long. For example, Psionic Revivify. Bringing someone back from the dead, even if it is not as good as the Divine abilities, still has extremely high unique utility. Psions can do it. Sorcerers cannot. I do not consider a single power worth a merit though. Both sides have cool spells or cool powers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 2733151, member: 2011"] It doesn't skew the data if it is fairly consistently an additional advantage. I stated why I broke it out. Increasing the DC occurs on a lot of augmented powers. That's REAL significant in game mechanics terms. It's the equivalent of an additional feat Heighten Power on many of the powers. You do not get to choose whether to increase the DC when augmenting or augment something else, you get both. Hence, an additional advantage equivalent to a feat in this case. My yardstick tends to be whether something is unique and has the power of a feat or the power of a special ability. I added the fact that it is equivalent to Heighten Spell for free, just to clarify that it is because the Psion is getting a free feat for many powers that this is a merit. Yes, he can get the constantly on ones with effort. And, he cannot use the non-constantly on ones. But effectively what this boils down to is that the Psion get the Wild Talent pre-requisite feat for these for free. How can that NOT be considered an advantage for the Psion? If one class needs two feats to get something and another needs one, the class that needs one has an advantage. I will continue to maintain that every single time one class or the other gets a feat or gets the use of a feat without purchasing the feat, it's a merit. Agreed. +8 is a serious advantage outside of normal game parameters. I won't discuss this anymore. You ignore the fact that you have to affect an opponent to do these. Schism or Quicken Power are hard to disrupt and apply to the manifester. The Quicken Power feat is huge at high level. And, the Psion also has powers which either Quicken by default (Intellect Fortress) or can be Quicken as part of the power. Extra personal actions is different than taking out a foe so the enemies have less actions. Psions can more easily manifest more than once per round. Sorcerers rarely can cast more than once per round. That is what this merit is about. Apples and apples. Good point. Does the Psion have single target no save powers limited to a set number of hit points (i.e. typically only useful against lower level opponents) at high level that inconvenience an opponent for a number of rounds? Psions can get Microcosm at 9th. It is permanent shy of magical countering (like Power Word Kill). It can also affect multiple creatures. So, it is more powerful than Power Word Kill for all intents and purposes. Power Word Blind and Stun are inconvenience spells. The first does not prevent the opponent from taking actions, it just limits how useful his actions are. The second stuns him. Potent, but many other powers are just as potent, just in different ways. And, there are immunities to these (such as having high hit points, Spell Resistance, being immune to mind effecting spells, etc.). I was actually going to add the Power Word series of spells to the list until I noticed that Microcosm negated and is even better than Power Word Kill. I'm trying to be impartial here, but one or two spells which do have defenses is not a big deal. Find an entire group of spells. For example, I just thought of one. Illusion spells. Psions cannot do illusions. Advantage: Sorcerers. I'll add this to the list. Both Psions and Sorcerers can effectively do all of the other schools of magic. And, we can nitpick individual powers or spellls all day long. For example, Psionic Revivify. Bringing someone back from the dead, even if it is not as good as the Divine abilities, still has extremely high unique utility. Psions can do it. Sorcerers cannot. I do not consider a single power worth a merit though. Both sides have cool spells or cool powers. [/QUOTE]
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