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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2733796" data-attributes="member: 5777">I am not sure why Arch mage isnt much help for a sorc. Doesnt it basically give beanies that are better than what are listed as 'psionic advantages' and more? It doesnt have any lost levels of spellcasting either.Loremaster is a bit tough to qualify for, but its benefits are rather incredible along with no loss in spellcasting.Psion uncarnate is listed as 'somewhat ok' but it gives up 4 caster levels. I dont really see how that qualifies as ok to any useful degree.Given 2 prcs which grant full spellcasting progression + beanies I'd have to say that the sorc is pretty far ahead in prc choice over the psion.Which, for this thread, means it should be listed as 'S' <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I havent counted the sorc spells, but I did just count the psion powers.. before the discipline the psion has 162 power choices. Domains usually add 16 more on average. Where is 277 coming from?I suppose if you counted expanded knowledge you could could all of the psychic warrior powers as well you would get a few more, but there is a lot of overlap. Plus, in order to get those you have to be high enough level and spend a feat. Which means if that is where the number comes from then it is more than a little misleading. Of course, sorcs dont have this with spells that have no somatic components either. Definately a psion advantage, but not listed as the full story.I dont really think this should be listed as several different advantages, rather a single advantage of getting 5 bonus feats over 20 levels.As such the sorc getting a familiar at first level should be listed as an advantage that they have. Familiars are similar to psicrystals, but they have some fundamental differences.Otherwise perhaps we should list every time the sorc gets to swap out a spell as a seperate advantage as well. No, they arent the same scale, but then we arent listing the scale of the advantage right?If the psion puts in no extra pp then the dc does not go up, if the sorc does not use a higher level slot then the dc does not go up. That sounds a lot like a wash.Heighten has other benefits besides raising dc, although not many that is true. But then, psionics doesnt get heighten so they only get to even have the option for a specific subset of powers and not whichever they want to use it on.In other words, the sorc could use it wherever he likes and gain the advantage of it being higher level whereas the psion does not get to choose what it works on but can get other benefits (which also balance out the lack of scaling issue).Sounds like a wash. Especially when some powers get higher dc for 3 or even 4 pp instead of 2.In the last 'many' is highly ambiguous. A number out of the 377 choices that they have would be good.I suppose that to be fair the sorc should get the advantages of:The sorc gets his spells without the auditory component (lots of humming which can be loud or quiet, but this has actual defined rules associated with it unlike verbal.. strong is highly ambiguous) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.The sorc gets his spells without the material component (subject or area is covered in goo) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.The sorc gets his spells without the mental component (chiming in peoples minds) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.The sorc gets his spells without the olfactory component (whats that smell?) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.The sorc gets his spells without the visual component (glowing eyes and rainbow flashes? uh oh!) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.A few, 'such as these powers' would be a good addition here. 'Often' is again a bit leading, a solid number is much more helpful. The more examples of this happening the better, preferably a list of them all.Well, aquiring focus pretty much negates the first part.Again, 'vast majority' is leading, especially when your examples make this not true. Focus is a huge limiting factor between time, required feats, and a skill check (or two).I guess I can go through each of the feats though.As you yourself have shown (although the numbers seem off) even with exanded knowledge the psion still has many fewer choices than the sorc.Overchannel does a good amount of damage to the psion (without spending yet more feats and focus and limited power useage then) and the free scaling issue helps cut into this problem. The psion, at that point, has to pay in a few different ways. But it is a very nice feat! Although costly.Psionic body you basically limit yourself to only being able to choose psionic feats. I know we arent looking at noncore, but improved toughness is 'much' better and still isnt even an impressive feat.Psionic dodge requires dodge and doesnt make either feat any good, it is still horrible ;/ Dodge is no good and psionic dodge is even worse because of the prereqs.I dont know what to say about one touch attack per round which also kills your ability to make full attacks unless you dont like doing it very often.. it isnt like a psion is a powerhouse of weapon damage dealing.. a touch attack helps offset the poor bab.Then again, most of these the sorc could get anyway, so they arent a psionic advantage in the feats, they are a psionic advantage in that it might take the psion one less feat in order to start getting them all. But then that only means that psions have a pseudo class feature that anyone can gain access to.All in all, definately a psionic advantage. Although it is good to note that sorcs can get it as well. Which mean that the whole advantage comes down to, 'psions have an easier time using psionic feats than sorcs'.With archmage the sorc can not only change energy types, he gets more choices and doesnt suffer from the damage penalty for sonic damage.But then sorcs get force damage much easier and much more efficiently so I guess that is another:#S: Sorcs get access to easier and more efficient force damage.Force is generally superior to energy <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />As a mod has made some comments about this I'll probably make a thread about it later. Suffice it to say though I disagree with your conclusion.Sorcs do this in other ways as pointed out.. such as slow and haste. They arent directly actions, but they have abilities which grant other bonuses which, in some ways, add up to the same thing.It was pointed out already, but it is important to note in this one. I know that the 'support spells' is listed elsewhere, but this number is about 'action gain powers'.Polymorph heals for 1hp/hd and it is 4th level.The psion healing power is 5th level and heals d12 hp (augmentable by +2pp = +1d12)Say that they are both 17th level.The sorc uses a 4th level spell slot, gains 17 hp, and maybe can use the form to do something useful.. possiblyThe psion pops 17 pp (9th level equivalent) and heals 45.5 hp and does nothing else.If the sorc casts 3 4th level spells it heals more damage.Which is more powerful in general, 3 4th level spells or 1 9th level spell?Especially as you have argued before that sorcs dont care about spells below level 7 once they are casting 9th level spells.. sounds like free healing at that point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Then again, the sorc could use a summon monster 9 and summon a creature that can heal like this for 17 rounds (as a 17th level caster with no other abilities to boost this, which there are several): lay on hands for 114 (more if the sorc has augmented summoning), heal spell (10th level caster), 3 cure criticals, at will polymorph = 502 hp on average.But all of that says the same thing you did: psions can heal themselves directly and sorcs can summon people at higher level to heal.What isnt said though is that the sorcs is much more efficient and has utility and combat use. Why is that a psion advantage when the sorc is better at it?Care to list what powers you are talking about? As is, this is a point without a point. One could just as easily say that sorcs get more 'mega-spells' than psioncs get 'mega-powers' or in other words the sorcs get horribly overpowered spells that cost no exp while the psion gets underpowered powers that do cost exp.See where the problem is?'Better' is ill defined. In what way are they better?Many summons get some very interesting spell like abilities which are useful in combat and can provide lots of combat options that astral constructs cannot (such as fearing an ememy, causing mass sickness, or being generally illusive with things like hide in plain site so they can arrange themselves in the combat better).I am guessing that you mean AC in general. It is good to list the summons advantages then as well, such as SR and better saves, along with more baseline resistances.. the constructs also have the construct type which has advantages and disadvantages (most notable of the disadvantages is lack of intelligence vs some of the summons being brilliant).These are mainly just a few things I thought needed extra clarification and wording corrections <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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