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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 411191" data-attributes="member: 463">I kinda liked the weak-ish demon lords in 1e.  But then the gods were on the same scale.  I think perhaps the big problem is with the OTT god stats in DDG, not the demons in BoVD, although Graz'zt clearly did get the shaft relative to CR 30 Asmodeus etc.  The poster who said that Graz'zt 'needed to be made uncool' is possibly onto something.I agree also that giant ELH uber-monsters can plausibly be made more powerful than human-sized demon lords (or gods) - an iceberg is more powerful than a battleship, if the two collide... they're just not on the same scale.</blockquote>