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<blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 412343" data-attributes="member: 463">As UK has said, to succeed in the Abyss you need both.&nbsp; Anyway, my real beef is that they didn't retain the 1e power gradient, or similar (1e Orcus's 120 hp was a bit low!).&nbsp; I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32.&nbsp; That's Titivilus territory, not Graz'zt!And leaving all that aside, the incompatibility with DDG power levels, not ELH power levels, seems to me to be the book's real failing.&nbsp; At times there seems to be a quasi-Christian justification for 'weak' devils &amp; demons.&nbsp; But in actual Christian 'mythology' like Milton, the pagan gods like Zeus &amp; Odin are just minor demon lords anyway - certainly weaker than Lucifer or Mammon.&nbsp;&nbsp; A Christian-influenced campaign would logically put Asmodeus as much stronger than Ares, something like the Hercules/Xena TV series treatment of it (AFAIK - haven't seen the latter seasons of Herc)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="S'mon, post: 412343, member: 463"] As UK has said, to succeed in the Abyss you need both. Anyway, my real beef is that they didn't retain the 1e power gradient, or similar (1e Orcus's 120 hp was a bit low!). I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32. That's Titivilus territory, not Graz'zt! And leaving all that aside, the incompatibility with DDG power levels, not ELH power levels, seems to me to be the book's real failing. At times there seems to be a quasi-Christian justification for 'weak' devils & demons. But in actual Christian 'mythology' like Milton, the pagan gods like Zeus & Odin are just minor demon lords anyway - certainly weaker than Lucifer or Mammon. A Christian-influenced campaign would logically put Asmodeus as much stronger than Ares, something like the Hercules/Xena TV series treatment of it (AFAIK - haven't seen the latter seasons of Herc) [/QUOTE]

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