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Message: <blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 412605" data-attributes="member: 1225">If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that). Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.And that's not really measurable by CR, AFAIK.BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power). From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear). Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by. So being muy macho isn't sufficient by itself. You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back. Just being able to beat up anybody in your gang is not enough.Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs. So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days.</blockquote>

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