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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 412701" data-attributes="member: 4937">Barsoomcore:&nbsp; I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable.&nbsp; The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler.&nbsp; The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous.&nbsp; None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss.&nbsp; Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust.&nbsp; As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition?And there is a certain sense in which the idea of rulership is one that is foriegn to the Abyss by definition.&nbsp; The notion is convienent in a story sense but ultimately as much of a betrayal of the concept as a 'Borg Queen'.It is entirely possible for thier to be a CE ruler and yet have that ruler be an epitome of CEness.&nbsp; But, it is not possible to have a CE ruler with a large number of CE subjects and have both be embodiments of pure CE.&nbsp; No matter how intimidating X demon prince may be, all his intimidation can accomplish is greater mistrust, greater resentment, and greater disunity.&nbsp; To accomplish something else is to make the claim that an embodiment of perfect CE caused weal, benifice, cohesion, and law as a result of his actions - which is a clear contridiction.&nbsp; A ruler of demons could only 'rule' on two condiations: 1) that he did not impose his own will, but if that were the case he would not be truly CE, or 2) that he was personally present and capable of forcing the self-interested subject to act in his self interest.&nbsp; But ultimately, two fails because any subject so oppressed would quickly rebel and leave the first demons sphere of influence or join some being who felt a similar personal grudge.Cowardice provides only temporary relief from the problem.&nbsp; If the demons do not band together against thier oppressor because they are not willing to risk sacrificing themselves even on thier own behalf, then they are also far too cowardly to risk sacrificing themselves on someone elses behalf.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 412701, member: 4937"] Barsoomcore: I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable. The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler. The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous. None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss. Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust. As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition? And there is a certain sense in which the idea of rulership is one that is foriegn to the Abyss by definition. The notion is convienent in a story sense but ultimately as much of a betrayal of the concept as a 'Borg Queen'. It is entirely possible for thier to be a CE ruler and yet have that ruler be an epitome of CEness. But, it is not possible to have a CE ruler with a large number of CE subjects and have both be embodiments of pure CE. No matter how intimidating X demon prince may be, all his intimidation can accomplish is greater mistrust, greater resentment, and greater disunity. To accomplish something else is to make the claim that an embodiment of perfect CE caused weal, benifice, cohesion, and law as a result of his actions - which is a clear contridiction. A ruler of demons could only 'rule' on two condiations: 1) that he did not impose his own will, but if that were the case he would not be truly CE, or 2) that he was personally present and capable of forcing the self-interested subject to act in his self interest. But ultimately, two fails because any subject so oppressed would quickly rebel and leave the first demons sphere of influence or join some being who felt a similar personal grudge. Cowardice provides only temporary relief from the problem. If the demons do not band together against thier oppressor because they are not willing to risk sacrificing themselves even on thier own behalf, then they are also far too cowardly to risk sacrificing themselves on someone elses behalf. [/QUOTE]

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