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<blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 412704" data-attributes="member: 1225">I have to disagree with that, at least in terms of the real world. You can deceive someone who doesn't trust you, lie to and plot against people who are lying and plotting against you. And people who are loyal to pretty much only themselves (I'm talking about people who don't really have a grasp of what &quot;loyalty&quot; means) can be manipulators and manipulatees (both at the same time). That's common. Sometimes, deceitful and dishonest people are the easiest to manipulate (aka &quot;fool&quot;); they can be easy to lie to (despite the fact that they seem to assume that &quot;everyone lies&quot;), but even if they assume everything you say is a lie, you can use that to manipulate them anyways. Ever known a crack or heroin addict? They will lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate; but they also get lied to, cheated, stolen from, and manipulated -- all the time. Heck, I suppose I could introduce you to some sample persons that have exhibited these behaviors, if you wanted to meet 'em; but I'd rather skip that hypothetical future family reunion. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Now, you can say that demons aren't like humans, that no demon ever trusts anyone or anything, due to their perfectly and completely chaotic and evil natures, and thus no intrigue is possible, then continue with your argument. However, that doesn't fit the facts we have about demons (e.g., there are demon lords and demon armies and so forth). Perhaps that implies that demons are not actually perfectly chaotic and perfectly evil? (Also, saying that a chaotic &amp; evil nature makes one essentially un-foolable implies that being chaotic and evil makes one immune to stupidity, which seems quite counter-intuitive to me.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="coyote6, post: 412704, member: 1225"] I have to disagree with that, at least in terms of the real world. You can deceive someone who doesn't trust you, lie to and plot against people who are lying and plotting against you. And people who are loyal to pretty much only themselves (I'm talking about people who don't really have a grasp of what "loyalty" means) can be manipulators and manipulatees (both at the same time). That's common. Sometimes, deceitful and dishonest people are the easiest to manipulate (aka "fool"); they can be easy to lie to (despite the fact that they seem to assume that "everyone lies"), but even if they assume everything you say is a lie, you can use that to manipulate them anyways. Ever known a crack or heroin addict? They will lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate; but they also get lied to, cheated, stolen from, and manipulated -- all the time. Heck, I suppose I could introduce you to some sample persons that have exhibited these behaviors, if you wanted to meet 'em; but I'd rather skip that hypothetical future family reunion. :) Now, you can say that demons aren't like humans, that no demon ever trusts anyone or anything, due to their perfectly and completely chaotic and evil natures, and thus no intrigue is possible, then continue with your argument. However, that doesn't fit the facts we have about demons (e.g., there are demon lords and demon armies and so forth). Perhaps that implies that demons are not actually perfectly chaotic and perfectly evil? (Also, saying that a chaotic & evil nature makes one essentially un-foolable implies that being chaotic and evil makes one immune to stupidity, which seems quite counter-intuitive to me.) [/QUOTE]

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