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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 412720" data-attributes="member: 4049">I don't think anyone cut out social and/or political elements.  However, it's the phyiscal/magical/psionic power that dominates the "politics" of The Abyss to a far greater degree than in the Nine Hells or Gehenna. As for the Demon Princes being equally ranked, I think that's part of the concern.  If the likes of Graz'zt, historically ranked with Orcus and Demogorgon (and stronger than Lolth, I might add), is now suddenly significantly lower in strength (as his CR suggests), then there's a problem.  And remember, even among gangs and thugs, there are "rules" (which, admittedly are broken when convenient) that govern why there isn't one leader.  Quite frankly, in a Chaotic system there can't be one leader.  Chaos is about change, conflict, contrast, and so on (wasn't trying to alliterate, but I think that was poetic).  Among the cess-pool of CE, a few individuals have risen that command the respect of trillions of Demons... but there's not one guiding force because the nature of Chaos doesn't allow this.The latter is what concerns some people, including myself.  They aren't roughly equal in power according to the CR.  Now, I disagree with my august colleague (assuming I comprehend what he's said), U_K, in thinking that CR is the sole measurement between beings.  It is a measure of threat against a party of mortals.  For example, most people with whom I've interacted agree that Pit Fiends (CR 16) would probably beat a Marilith (CR 17) and a Balor (CR 18)... but the Pit Fiend is not as directly threatening to a party as the two Demons (Marilith has more attack options, about as many spells, almost as many HD as the PF, while the Balor has an instant kill weapon, and can do damage to those attacking it if they get too close... as well as a few more spells).  But, I do think that Demon Princes should pose the same level of threat to parties, albeit due to slightly different reasons.  Graz'zt may not be a physical powerhouse, but perhaps his weapons or spell selections could make as or almost as threatening as Demogorgon.Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt, IIRC, were near the same power level, with Demogorgon clearly out ahead, followed by Graz'zt and Orcus (I think for them, it was about Magic Items and HPs).  So, no one is saying they need to be precisely equal, but they should be closer in power.  By being closer in power, and then applying a limited degree of social mores and norms (an oxymoron to be sure in The Abyss), then one can flesh out how Orcus and Graz'zt manage to maintain their hegemony among the Demon Princes. Again, I don't think anyone said that physical prowess was the sole element... but it is the dominant one.  Using the street gang analogy I suggested earlier, there are many rival gangs out there that, for a variety of reason, do make treaties and deals about turf, appearance, and so-on.  The leader is the strongest and most charismatic... although not necessarily the smartest or most diplomatic.  His authority is derived through his physical capabilities and his force of personality that backs up the physical rather than takes precedence to it (as in the Nine Hells).  He doesn't have to get involved in intrigue or deception; disobey and get pummelled or killed.  He doesn't have to manipulate any more than promising punishment for disobedience.  So long as he maintains the threat of pain and his ability to personally back it up, he leads the gang.  One could say that it is based upon the number of and relative powers a being can summon or call.  Afterall, this is included in the stats for Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual[/i].In Costner's [/i]Wyatt Earp[/i], the title character, by himself and with a shotgun only, disperses an angry lynch mob.  They knew his reputation.  They knew how physically dangerous he was.  He had a high reputation.  Although I think Earp in this movie was LN with Good tendancies, the encounter required that he deviate from his alignment by reacting in an unlawful way.  The Demon Princes are no different except they do this all the time.  There is fear and respect because they promise a beat down and destruction if disobeyed.  They are intelligent and enough of their ploys have worked, further intensifying the fleeting loyalty of their subordinants.  And, they can wither a ticked Balor with a stern gaze.  I don't see how this isn't consistent with street gangs.A Demon can turn coat on its boss.  A Demon can provide information to a rival.  A Demon can forget to follow a command.  A Demon can engage in most of the things associated with a street gang.  And, like the police, enemies to Demons (including Devils, Celestials, etc) deal with them when they can but aren't dumb enough to venture into their territory unless absolutely necessary.  The analogy works.</blockquote>

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