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The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
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<blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 412884" data-attributes="member: 5171"><p>This discussion is silly. I shall enter it.</p><p></p><p>By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door.</p><p></p><p>My understanding -- and your campaign could be different, but I believe my understanding is closer to the core rules -- is that a Chaotic or Evil creature does not HAVE to break rules or cheat or steal. It simply has no problem whatsoever doing so. And the creature will inherently tend to distrust laws. This doesn't mean that they can't follow orders or even be loyal to someone who is a powerful and respected master.</p><p></p><p>I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites. In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm. The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness. A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo. Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors. Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage. People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it. Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need.</p><p></p><p>In a Chaotic Evil society, like the demons have, you've got rulers. You've got followers. And the followers follow for precisely as long as it is to their advantage. Assassination is acceptible, as long as one can make the kill and still be standing at the end. And with all their magical abilities, a demon lord's reach is far longer than its physical grasp.</p><p></p><p>A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach. I understand that. Right now, however, my reach includes you. Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon. And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly." If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power. It's a good deal for me.</p><p></p><p>The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly. If that were true, succubi would be extinct. Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards. Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen. They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power. </p><p></p><p>The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure. It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior.</p><p></p><p>-Tacky</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="takyris, post: 412884, member: 5171"] This discussion is silly. I shall enter it. By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door. My understanding -- and your campaign could be different, but I believe my understanding is closer to the core rules -- is that a Chaotic or Evil creature does not HAVE to break rules or cheat or steal. It simply has no problem whatsoever doing so. And the creature will inherently tend to distrust laws. This doesn't mean that they can't follow orders or even be loyal to someone who is a powerful and respected master. I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites. In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm. The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness. A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo. Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors. Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage. People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it. Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need. In a Chaotic Evil society, like the demons have, you've got rulers. You've got followers. And the followers follow for precisely as long as it is to their advantage. Assassination is acceptible, as long as one can make the kill and still be standing at the end. And with all their magical abilities, a demon lord's reach is far longer than its physical grasp. A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach. I understand that. Right now, however, my reach includes you. Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon. And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly." If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power. It's a good deal for me. The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly. If that were true, succubi would be extinct. Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards. Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen. They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power. The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure. It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior. -Tacky [/QUOTE]
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