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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 413014" data-attributes="member: 4937">drnuncheon: I'd thought of that exact same arguement earlier, and indeed it is I think the only strong arguement against my position (which is why I didn't bring it up).  So, feel free to advance it, because I'm interested in seeing just how far it can be advanced.But, I suspect that it has a critical weakness.  The would be manipulator must suppose that if his mark is to be manipulated that his actions must be somewhat predictable.  That is to say, the would be manipulator must be intelligent and sageous enough to be able to predict what the foe will guess when faced with the condrudum, 'I can't trust my foe, but my foe must know that I can't trust him, but...'.  Fair enough you say, the Demon Lords possess inhuman intelligence and are capable of manipulating others based on successfully divining both what the other has posited (that is in the simpliest case, whether they are telling the truth hoping you will believe it a lie, or telling the lie hoping you believe it to be the truth) AND predicting how the mark will respond when you face them with the same condrumdum.  The problem here lies only several levels.  For one, it ought to be clear at the least that it is a good bit harder to be decietful when no trust at all is present.  For another, it ought to be clear that there is a certain ammount of luck involved.  In condrudum contests like the Game of Wits in Princes Bride, in reality, most peoples position is not based on a deducable principal but in fact on a random decision.  Therefore, no matter how intelligent you may be, your odds of correctly guessing are no better than those of someone who is completely stupid (50/50).  Moreover, given that the players are in fact Chaotic, they are more likely than ever to be no more predictable than dice, and thus not manipulatable in the way you describe.And there is an even more subtle problem.  I like to consider myself a person of rather high intelligence.  Persumably other people on this board have similar justifiable belief in their own mental prowess.  Didn't it seem to you that Vincini wasn't nearly as intelligent as you yourself are?  For instance, Vincini was able to lay all the evidence out before him, and yet could not draw the simple conclusion that the game was clearly rigged and that you shouldn't play a game that is rigged.  Think about it.  With the evidence before you, there was no other possible conclusion than you are being tricked.  Vincini was manipulated by Wesley into believing that the game was fair even though Vincini had no reason to believe that Wesley would risk his life in a fair game.  How stupid can you get?And indeed, and here is the point, wouldn't a demon think precisely the same thing?  How stupid can you get?  Trusting Graz'zt or Orcus or Demogorgon into tricking you into believing that the game is fair.  You know that the game isn't fair, and in fact you don't believe that there is such a thing as fairness!  There are only games rigged in favor of one side or the other, and you should only play the games rigged by you.  Some people are arguing that failure of trust is Chaotic Stupid, but in fact quite the opposite is the case.  Chaotic Stupid is Vincini the criminal trusting another known criminal to set up a fair game.And moreover, there seems to be some resentment here that I'm saying Chaotic Evil cannot organize powerful institutions (and in fact I'm saying that they cannot organize institutions at all).  People ARE in fact arguing against me that CE beings would be much better off if they just got along, and in a certain sence you are right.  The Nine Hells are much better organized, and the rulers there of able to command much greater power than any ruler of the Abyss regardless of the relative personal power of either demons or devils.  So what?  No doubt every demon is highly envious of Asmodeus.  Look at that fat cat they say.  He's got it easy.  He's tricked all those other fools into doing his bidding.  What I wouldn't give to have a bunch of stupid foolish devils sacrificing themselves for my pleasure.  But that doesn't mean that the Abyss would suddenly organize according to the model of the Nine Hells just because all the inhabitants of the Abyss are smart enough to understand that they would be more powerful and properous if they did.  Because, all the members of the Abyss are also intensely aware that there is only one 'admirable' (by their standards) being in the Nine Hells - the guy on top.  In the Abyss, maybe the group isn't achieving like it could, but so what?  You don't give a flip about the group.  What you care about is that you aren't serving someone elses interests.  I mean please, it is not stupid not to serve Graz'zt.  Have you ever tried serving Graz'zt?  Serving Graz'zt is what is stupid, and I'm sure that the Succubi makes the same argument to herself, but that I'd never believe what she was telling me about serving Graz'zt one way or the other.</blockquote>

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