Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="barsoomcore" data-source="post: 413025" data-attributes="member: 812"><p>Sure, let's assume that. At least until you trash it and I have to scramble for another. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I note, however, that the crux of YOUR argument appears to have shifted from the notion of mutual self-interest to the idea that Graz'zt is so smart he can predict demon's behaviour with enough accuracy that he can have some confidence that they have done X and not Y.</p><p></p><p>That's pretty good, I admit. Let's assume Graz'zt is smart (it doesn't have to be Graz'zt, but there's probably at least one demon lord who's reasonably bright, so let's call that one Graz'zt). He's smart enough that he can predict demon behaviour with better than 50% accuracy (less than that and he's better off just guessing, right?). So he sends demons off with various instructions, just to see what happens, because he can draw his own conclusions from whatever does happen, right? He doesn't need to trust anyone, he just needs to watch the outcomes in order to read between the lines and get the information he needs.</p><p></p><p>Huh. I see that.</p><p></p><p>Here's the problem, though: whenever anyone opens their mouth in the Abyss, everyone listening is going to be wondering who's agenda is being served. Now you're saying that Graz'zt is so smart (and, presumably, so arrogant) that he has enough faith in his understanding of the situation that he can figure out who's agenda is currently at the counter. Which is great, if he happens to be correct, and will get him killed if he's not. So what you end up with is a place where only the smartest, most paranoid, most powerful being will survive.</p><p></p><p>Because he's so smart, he can see through everyone else's plans. Because he's so paranoid, he realises that ANY sentient creature has the ability to become a threat to him. Because he's so powerful, he can wipe them out. Why allow any to exist when by simply wiping them out eliminates ALL risk? He can live forever just by killing every single other demon. Given the timeline that the Abyss has been running on, isn't it inevitable that this will happen? Even the slightest power imbalance will, over time, become crucial.</p><p></p><p>It's not like a demon is going to get lonely. And if we surmise that hey, he needs other demons to push around, well, then he's not quite as smart as we thought and so some smarter demon is going to come along and push him off his pedestal and not make that mistake.</p><p></p><p>Logic demands that IF your goal is to survive in the Abyss, that you will be forced to eliminate all life within it. Because in the Abyss, all life is a threat and will never provide any companionship besides. It's either kill 'em all or (what the actual smart person would do) leave.</p><p></p><p>Okay, so you got me on the smart thing. A smart demon can bamboozle a dumb demon. But my original notion was that the idea of actual evil is silly. Which it still is. The point that one demon can fool another doesn't make it less silly.</p><p></p><p>Well, MAYBE it's LESS silly, but it's still pretty silly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="barsoomcore, post: 413025, member: 812"] Sure, let's assume that. At least until you trash it and I have to scramble for another. ;) I note, however, that the crux of YOUR argument appears to have shifted from the notion of mutual self-interest to the idea that Graz'zt is so smart he can predict demon's behaviour with enough accuracy that he can have some confidence that they have done X and not Y. That's pretty good, I admit. Let's assume Graz'zt is smart (it doesn't have to be Graz'zt, but there's probably at least one demon lord who's reasonably bright, so let's call that one Graz'zt). He's smart enough that he can predict demon behaviour with better than 50% accuracy (less than that and he's better off just guessing, right?). So he sends demons off with various instructions, just to see what happens, because he can draw his own conclusions from whatever does happen, right? He doesn't need to trust anyone, he just needs to watch the outcomes in order to read between the lines and get the information he needs. Huh. I see that. Here's the problem, though: whenever anyone opens their mouth in the Abyss, everyone listening is going to be wondering who's agenda is being served. Now you're saying that Graz'zt is so smart (and, presumably, so arrogant) that he has enough faith in his understanding of the situation that he can figure out who's agenda is currently at the counter. Which is great, if he happens to be correct, and will get him killed if he's not. So what you end up with is a place where only the smartest, most paranoid, most powerful being will survive. Because he's so smart, he can see through everyone else's plans. Because he's so paranoid, he realises that ANY sentient creature has the ability to become a threat to him. Because he's so powerful, he can wipe them out. Why allow any to exist when by simply wiping them out eliminates ALL risk? He can live forever just by killing every single other demon. Given the timeline that the Abyss has been running on, isn't it inevitable that this will happen? Even the slightest power imbalance will, over time, become crucial. It's not like a demon is going to get lonely. And if we surmise that hey, he needs other demons to push around, well, then he's not quite as smart as we thought and so some smarter demon is going to come along and push him off his pedestal and not make that mistake. Logic demands that IF your goal is to survive in the Abyss, that you will be forced to eliminate all life within it. Because in the Abyss, all life is a threat and will never provide any companionship besides. It's either kill 'em all or (what the actual smart person would do) leave. Okay, so you got me on the smart thing. A smart demon can bamboozle a dumb demon. But my original notion was that the idea of actual evil is silly. Which it still is. The point that one demon can fool another doesn't make it less silly. Well, MAYBE it's LESS silly, but it's still pretty silly. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
Top