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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 413103" data-attributes="member: 4937">takyris: Great post <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I too think that being CE does not perclude long range planning.  I don't want to get too side tracked down that arguement, but I do want to point out that in a certain since, adherence to any alignment percludes 'long-range planning' in the broadest sense.  Perhaps a LG person _could_ perform a series of evils and chaotic actions over a long period hoping to achieve a position from which they could accomplish some greater good, but ultimately one cannot help but notice that this is a somewhat more nuetral middle ground position.  The reverse is I believe also true.  A chaotic evil person that actually performs a series of good deeds in order to achieve a some long range evil is assuming a somewhat more neutral middle ground moral position.  And, if the person is CE by nature, then certainly it takes a great deal of discipline to avoid acting out this nature over a long term.  However, that isn't really what I want to argue.I also want to point out that your vision of a CE society is ultimately filled with shades of grey and is complexly neutral.  There is a little bit of law here, and a little bit of chaos here, and some evil here, and maybe even some good hidden away in the corners.  That's fine and interesting, and certainly alot easier to relate to, but that isn't necessarily what was originally postulated - which was I thought universal complete and unrepetant CE.However, that's not really what I wanted to add either. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />What I really want to add is that if you believe that 'long range planning' allows two demons to cooperate to achieve some mutual end, then you have to ask why all demons of the same level of intelligence haven't come to the same conclusion?  Why is it that with the rest of the multiverse unconquered, that Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt and all the rest haven't said, 'You know, we are being (chaotic) stupid.  We could all advance our various agenda's better if we just formed an alliance and acted together out of mutual self-interest.  That way, the interests of all demonkind (and most especially our august selves) would be advanced and we could secure our various domains far better than we could otherwise.  Once we have conquered the universe, then we can continue this debate about which of us will rule it.'  This is undoubtably true, and its undoubtably true that each demon lord would in the long term lose if they ever betrayed the other.  So why doesn't it happen?  It doesn't happen because that's not what demons believe in.  That is the position of the Lords of the Nine Hells.  The demons don't believe that is the correct course even if it is all true.Therefore, I propose to you that if a mere Succubi can be loyal for centuries because her long term interests lie that way, that the entire CE philosophy would collapse on itself.  Every demon would realize the same thing.  The Abyss would overnight become a plane of Law and the forces of Chaos would admit philosophical defeat.</blockquote>

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