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The break-down in believability at higher levels of play
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<blockquote data-quote="evildmguy" data-source="post: 5447654" data-attributes="member: 6092"><p>Lots of thoughts on this. </p><p></p><p>In my current weekly campaign, I didn't wait until high levels to introduce potential bad guys. I have a group that wanted to play unaligned. Okay, I went with it. I then introduced and showed them the really bad evil things that are doing bad things. (Beholder and a lich to name but a few. I have a LOT of threads going on.) What stopped them was probably a bit meta game but they know they can't touch the lich or beholder. So, they are biding their time, gathering their resources and I can see them going after them eventually. What I am also hoping to do is show that being unaligned doesn't work and they will have to pick a side. ("I don't care what you believe in as long as you believe.") They are able to go against some things and they have taken out some high placed bad guys but they know they are far from over. </p><p></p><p>In another campaign, I told them at lower levels that the writings they found was Netherese (the FR big powerful magic kingdom of the past), and so they probably figured it was a lich or student of Netheril that was the bad guy. However, as the characters got more experience, I told them that what they thought was Netherese was someone faking it who had an imperfect understanding of Netherese. They figured it out as they looked back on it and read it again and then they started to see the fakes easier. However, at no time in the low level period did I even hint that it wasn't Netherese. It wasn't until they were more experienced that this was something they would see. </p><p></p><p>I do fight with the time frame as well. Knowing that it takes lots of time to be an expert at something, I don't like it when a game year goes by and they went up fifteen levels. I try and have down time and other time past, including skipping winter if I can as it's too cold for most of it, but usually have to let this slip and suspend my disbelief on it. </p><p></p><p>As for metagame reasons, this is going to happen due to the rules of DND. I don't know pathfinder, but DND from 3.5 to earlier played differently at different levels. 4E is a bit more even, but higher levels are obviously more powerful. In contrast, Alternity or Exalted or WoD are not going to have that kind of issue because they are skill based, not level based. In fact, after playing Alternity for almost a year, while they had improved because the players didn't see that instant improvement that a level gives, it was tough for them to realize how much more powerful they were. Because also in those games, is the idea that a new character could get lucky and take out an experienced characters. It's not probable but it's possible. My players didn't like the slow progression, and to some extent I didn't either, but it did help with the timeframe, at least. </p><p></p><p>As for other coments:</p><p></p><p>I think the BBEG doesn't wipe them out at 3rd level because she doesn't notice them. Or, put another way, they don't stand out from any other 3rd level adventuring party. So, why would she bother? It's not until they get within striking distance of her, which can be up to three or four levels lower of the BBEG, that she notices the threat and reacts to it. Hopefully too late! </p><p></p><p>I also definitely have the BBEGs used to clear out other obstacles. But, I make it palatable because they are still fighting evil. One evil group is using the PCs to take out their rival, another evil group. The PCs are fine with it at the moment because they still take out an evil group! And when done with one, they can go back for the other and they are now more powerful!</p><p></p><p>I'm also open to the idea of the PCs wanting to take over. In fact, they have said they want power because they think they are the most responsible with it! I'm trying to show them evil acts the bad guys do, so they will be good about it, but if that's what they want to do, that's fine with me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="evildmguy, post: 5447654, member: 6092"] Lots of thoughts on this. In my current weekly campaign, I didn't wait until high levels to introduce potential bad guys. I have a group that wanted to play unaligned. Okay, I went with it. I then introduced and showed them the really bad evil things that are doing bad things. (Beholder and a lich to name but a few. I have a LOT of threads going on.) What stopped them was probably a bit meta game but they know they can't touch the lich or beholder. So, they are biding their time, gathering their resources and I can see them going after them eventually. What I am also hoping to do is show that being unaligned doesn't work and they will have to pick a side. ("I don't care what you believe in as long as you believe.") They are able to go against some things and they have taken out some high placed bad guys but they know they are far from over. In another campaign, I told them at lower levels that the writings they found was Netherese (the FR big powerful magic kingdom of the past), and so they probably figured it was a lich or student of Netheril that was the bad guy. However, as the characters got more experience, I told them that what they thought was Netherese was someone faking it who had an imperfect understanding of Netherese. They figured it out as they looked back on it and read it again and then they started to see the fakes easier. However, at no time in the low level period did I even hint that it wasn't Netherese. It wasn't until they were more experienced that this was something they would see. I do fight with the time frame as well. Knowing that it takes lots of time to be an expert at something, I don't like it when a game year goes by and they went up fifteen levels. I try and have down time and other time past, including skipping winter if I can as it's too cold for most of it, but usually have to let this slip and suspend my disbelief on it. As for metagame reasons, this is going to happen due to the rules of DND. I don't know pathfinder, but DND from 3.5 to earlier played differently at different levels. 4E is a bit more even, but higher levels are obviously more powerful. In contrast, Alternity or Exalted or WoD are not going to have that kind of issue because they are skill based, not level based. In fact, after playing Alternity for almost a year, while they had improved because the players didn't see that instant improvement that a level gives, it was tough for them to realize how much more powerful they were. Because also in those games, is the idea that a new character could get lucky and take out an experienced characters. It's not probable but it's possible. My players didn't like the slow progression, and to some extent I didn't either, but it did help with the timeframe, at least. As for other coments: I think the BBEG doesn't wipe them out at 3rd level because she doesn't notice them. Or, put another way, they don't stand out from any other 3rd level adventuring party. So, why would she bother? It's not until they get within striking distance of her, which can be up to three or four levels lower of the BBEG, that she notices the threat and reacts to it. Hopefully too late! I also definitely have the BBEGs used to clear out other obstacles. But, I make it palatable because they are still fighting evil. One evil group is using the PCs to take out their rival, another evil group. The PCs are fine with it at the moment because they still take out an evil group! And when done with one, they can go back for the other and they are now more powerful! I'm also open to the idea of the PCs wanting to take over. In fact, they have said they want power because they think they are the most responsible with it! I'm trying to show them evil acts the bad guys do, so they will be good about it, but if that's what they want to do, that's fine with me. [/QUOTE]
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