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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ipissimus" data-source="post: 4178770" data-attributes="member: 41514">Make that CR 30 and yes. But the problem isn't just Balors, the problem is other Demon Lords. Why hasn't Graz'zt or Orcus taken a spare afternoon to go hunt Jubilex? It's easy to dismiss the God's disinterest in Demon Lords (they've got bigger fish to fry) but between each other is a whole different ballgame.This is the point where the argument loses me. When I look at any NPC, monster or not, my first thought isn't about killing them it's about what role they can play in my game. But then, I'm of the opinion that not ALL encounters are about killing something and taking it's stuff. Anyone ever wondered at the roleplaying possibilities Demogorgon represents rather than the big chunk of exp you'd get for killing him?Yeah, he's big, bad, arrogant (with every right to be), totally insane, MPD, evil demon so ultimately powerful that killing him should be such a major multiverse shattering event that few parties should ever be able to pull off. Or have you considered that a party of low-level characters' proper reaction to encountering Demogorgon should be to attempt appeasement? Or that Demogorgon is so powerful that killing the PCs is really beneath him and turning them to his service for a short period of time might be to his benefit?So, why do we need stats for that? Well, what happens when the PCs decide to attack against all odds? If you just DM fiat 'you're all dead', the players will be dissatisfied. Even if you DM fiat 'he paralyzes you all with one move', it's dissatisfying. Besides, the way Demogorgon operates should be different to the way Orcus operates. Their styles should be different based on their personalities, in combat and out of combat. Where Demogorgon might intimidate a party into doing a job for him, Orcus might infect them with a rotting undead disease that acts like a Geas.On top of all that, the really powerful monsters are what suck a lot of people into the game. When I was a kid, for example, generic monsters and lesser beings hardly interested me as much as Demogorgon, Prince of demons (though I liked Graz'zt more). They're powerful and utterly cool, like every good villain. They're characters with personalities that you can latch on to. And the adventures that focus on them are some of the greatest, hardest, longest and most utterly satisfying. Throne of Bloodstone was so jaw-droppingly awesome and hard, my regular party still talks about it.Ok, sorry, end rant.I agree with you in spirit. I think a better way of putting it might be 'it seems that we will have the mechanics in order to do anything we want without feeling constrained'. Assuming that rituals are everything we hope they are, I agree. WOTC needs to leak a bit of the mechanics for rituals to set our minds at ease, really. But I do like what I've seen of monsters so far and the ability to add different abilities to a monster to make them unique excites me. I'm also excited that Orcus will be in the MM again particularly since epic play is getting the attention it deserves.</blockquote>

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