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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CombatWombat51" data-source="post: 1363343" data-attributes="member: 10473">Well, let's see what I can come up with... I've got the day off, I'm sore, and don't feel like moving from this chair <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />AssassinsI'll use the rogue/thief as a base, and compare from there.Disadvantages compared to ThievesMost of the assassin disadvantages aren't appropriate to 3.X, because those rules have been done away with.Assassins took (not much) more XP to level up: Uniform XP tables in 3.X.They capped out at 15th level: No level caps in 3.X.No prime requisite for bonus XP for high ability scores: No prime requisites in 3.X.Higher minimum ability scores: No minimum ability scores in 3.x.Required races: All races could advance without limit as thieves, but all demi-humans had limits on assassin advancement, except for halflings who couldn't be assassins, and half-orcs who had no limit.Assassins used their thief abilities, excluding back stabbing, as a thief two levels lower than their assassin level.Assassins had to be sure to not step on territorial toes at 14th level, and had to kill-or-be-killed to get to 15th level.Advantages over ThievesAssassins got ALL thief abilities, and then some. The only real thing the thief had over the assassin was that he advanced faster, without limit, and was better at his thief skills.Assassins got 3 proficient weapons at first level, and thereafter advanced at the same rate as thieves. Assassins could choose from any weapon, where thieves had a limited list. Also, assassins only suffered a -2 to hit when using unproficient weapons. I think that's neat, because that's the same as fighters and rangers (and only those 3 classes).Assassins could learn (highly) secret languages: no secret languages in 3.x.Assassins were explicitly allowed to use poison. I'll use my Poison Use feat.Assassins could disguise themselves, with a damn good chance of success. Simple Disguise skill.Assassins got a mob of followers at 14th level: Sounds like Leadership to me. Maybe modified without a cohort.Assassins could use any shield, and thieves could not use any.And finally, Assassins could freaking kill people. If an assassin got surprise, he had a roughly 50% chance to kill someone of equal level. Flat out dead. No save, no nothing. Oh, and they could get paid all kinds of cash for it, and get good XP out of it! Since in 1E, you got XP for GP, when you got that 5,000 gp for killing someone, you got the XP for the person, and you also got 5,000 XP for the cash! Sweet deal.SummaryAlot of that stuff just doesn't translate. I feel that it boils down to assassins being better in combat, assassinating things, followers, and not as many skill points.3.5 Core AssassinFor the skeleton (or "armature", since I've been reading about sculpting lately), I say we go with Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude, and Poor Will. In a perfect world, I'd give them a Medium Ref and Fort, but I know that makes some peoples' eyes bleed for some reason.References abound that assassins were better fighters than thieves, such as the line in the PHB "...they are generally superior to thieves in combat." <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> So I'll give them a d8 for HD. Medium BAB. Light armor, all simple and martial weapons. I'd say all shields since all-or-none is the norm, but I twitch at the idea of assassins with tower shields. So I'll say bucklers and light shields.6 skill points per level sounds fine. Skills Gather Info to find out about contracts, Listen, Spot, and Search to find the targets, and Climb, Jump, Hide, MS, Bluff, and Disguise to get to the targets. And Intimidate just fits <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />For the class abilities, Death Attack is obviously first on the list. My version of Poison Use (no chance to poison yourself, and a +2 to the DC's of poison you deliver) at 4th level.Sneak Attack +1d6 at every odd level, but I might cut that down later depending on how it all turns out.Followers, as per Leadership at 14th level, and again at 20th. No cohorts though (unless they take Leadership on their own).So, that gives us...AssassinFlavor Text: Assassins kill stuff and don't look goofy like in the DMG.Game Rule InformationAssassins have the following game statistics.Abilities: Dexterity is important for many class skills, as well as armor class. Intelligence determines how accurate and deadly an assassin's death attack is.Alignment: Any evilHit Die: d8Class SkillsThe assassin’s class skills are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).Skill Points per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier per levelClass FeaturesAll of the following are class features of the assassin.Weapons and Armor Proficiency: The assassin is proficient in simple and martial weapons, light armor, light shields, and bucklers.[code]Level    BAB    Fort    Ref    Will    Special1    +0    +0    +2    +0    Death Attack, Sneak Attack +1d62    +1    +0    +3    +0    3    +2    +1    +3    +1    Sneak Attack +2d64    +3    +1    +4    +1    Poison Use5    +3    +1    +4    +1    Sneak Attack +3d66    +4    +2    +5    +2    7    +5    +2    +5    +2    Sneak Attack +4d68    +6    +2    +6    +2    9    +6    +3    +6    +3    Sneak Attack +5d610    +7    +3    +7    +3    11    +8    +3    +7    +3    Sneak Attack +6d612    +9    +4    +8    +4    13    +9    +4    +8    +4    Sneak Attack +7d614    +10    +4    +9    +4    Guildmaster Assassin15    +11    +5    +9    +5    Sneak Attack +8d616    +12    +5    +10    +5    17    +12    +5    +10    +5    Sneak Attack +9d618    +13    +6    +11    +6    19    +14    +6    +11    +6    Sneak Attack +10d620    +15    +6    +12    +6    Grandfather of Assassins[/code]Death Attack (1st Level, Ex): Assassins can slay their foes with a single careful blow. Same as DMG assassin, page 180, except there's no paralyzing option, and the DC is 10 + half class level + Intelligence modifier.Sneak Attack (1st Level, Ex): An assassin knows how to strike the most vital of areas. You do 1d6 sneak attack damage whenever your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to armor class and whenever you flank him. You get an additional 1d6 sneak attack damage every odd level. This sneak attack damage stacks with sneak attack damage from other sources.    Creatures that are immune to critical hits are immune to this ability.Poison Use (4th Level, Ex): Assassins know how to properly apply poisons so to gain maximum effect. You don’t risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poison to a weapon. Additionally, when you poison an opponent with a weapon, the DC of the poison is increased by 2.Guildmaster Assassin (14th Level, Ex): Assassins of this prowess may attract a following of cutthroats and scoundrels. You gain followers as per the Leadership feat. These followers are evil, and are mostly composed of assassins, though other classes are possible, especially rogues and fighters.    You may choose to not attract followers, though though your choice is final (not counting the Leadership feat, or the Grandfather of Assassins class ability). Grandfather of Assassins (20th Level, Ex): At the pinacle of their power and infamy. You gain followers as per the Guildmaster Assassin class ability.    Like the Guildmaster Assassin class ability, you may choose to not attract followers.Kinda bland, but I like it <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> It might even be on the underpowered side. I'd like to add some ability related to Disguise and/or Hide around mid levels, but I'm not sure what would work while staying non-magical. I hope this helps you, or at least pushes you in a good direction.I'll do up the cavalier today, too, cuz I'm just that bored <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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