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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5401023" data-attributes="member: 5834">And to counter that, the other classes work quite well regardless of the group's playstyle and player in question. No caveats when it comes to every other class. No worries about flanking. No worries about moving into position. Just move and attack. You'll probably kill whatever you're fighting or have it half dead by the time the rogue perform's Dirty Trick, moves into position, or does whatever it is rogue's do to be effective.And past level 10 and the following occurs:1. Fighting all those nasty AoE fear creatures,2.  level drainers3. Nasty arcane and divine casters with their fort based damaging attacks that are targeting you first because they know you're weak in both4. Creatrues with nasty poison and poison is much worse in Pathfinder so it is a threat.5. Creatures with ACs that really start to make that five point lower BAB hurt and you with no means to elevate your attack roll like full BAB flurry, judgments, spells, or full BAB like a ranger.6. All those will based attacks like charm, dominate person, fear, hold, confusion, and the like including gaze attacks where you're saving every round.7. Simple spells like Blur and Invisibiilty making your sneak attack useless on top of the creatures immune to crit innately.8. DR you can't punch through very well.9. Less attacks than everyone else because of lower BAB and two weapon fighting being too feat intensive and lowering your already weak chance to hit.If you ever decide to play a straight rogue, better hope for some of the following:1. Your group never makes it past lvl 10 or so.2. Your DM is really into roleplaying encounters that require skills. A rogue can really shine in a skill-based campaign with a lot of traps.3. Your party is full of people that don't know how to optimize their characters.4. Your clerics don't mind focusing their counter support spells on keeping you clean of charms, fears, poison, and the like.5. Your DM doesn't play enemies like arcane casters and powerful outsiders, dragons, and undead intelligently enough to focus on the weak fort and will save classes first even though they have genius intellects and more experience fighting mortals than mortals have fighting them.I will never recommend anyone playing a single class rogue in a campaign going beyond 8th to 10th level without a DM that takes the time to create rogue friendly encounters. Not worth it as a player to spend that much time to build up a character only to have other character's around you shine so much brighter as they come into their own at high level.</blockquote>

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