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Message: <blockquote data-quote="concerro" data-source="post: 5401382" data-attributes="member: 37748">Even though I was talking about the rogue my comment holds true for any class. monks-there are enough threads on that, and I don't need to derail it here. other melee types-If you go to the Den(another gaming site) you will see how people can tell you that it is caster or bust, and due to their playstyle you could not play in their games and do well.wizards-Some DM's make things harder for wizards, but it is subconscious. Antimagic areas, almost impossible to learn new spells, and so on. sorcerers-bad spell selection can doom the classclerics-being in a party that is bad at tactics can turn you into a healbot, which means you may not get to have fundruids-DM restrictions on your animal choices, and not knowing how you want to play the classI can play a rogue past level 10 and do well in most people's games. Saves are an easy fix since most saves from monsters are not hard to beat. 1. As for fear affects I am sure I can them most of the time so that is not a problem.  Fighters also have to deal with will saves so if failing saves is expected then they are in as much trouble. This also carries over into the enchantment spells.  2.  Level drainers affect everyone, as for the fort save not an issue. I can UMD the scroll or get the cleric to handle that. This is a team game. 3. I have already mentioned saves. How will they  know I am a rogue, and most people try to take casters our first because they cause the most trouble. What good is it to kill a rogue, just so the caster(probably cleric) can bring him back to life? 4. Another save issue, and a scroll or potion or neutralize poison is not hard to obtain 5. AC's are really designed off of medium BAB so hitting things is not an issue.   6. Another save issue.  7.  Blur is not going to always be up, and the number of monster that are immune to crits and sneak attacks is very small. It is a corner case. Every class by design, and/or build has a monster that it will struggle against. Invisibility is not an issue because the party casters will be trying to make it visible so the other melee types can get to it. Now if I am in a group that did not prepare for invisible creatures then I can just buy a potion or scroll. I have never worried about invisible creatures because I have always had a counter at the same level that they might become an issue.  8. Higher enhanced weapons automatically overcome some DR's types. The caster's can use align weapon until I get a +5 weapon. If they don't want to cooperate, hopefully I never get in a party like that, I can get a potion or scroll for that too, and with all the dice I expect to be rolling I am sure I can bypass DR anyway.  9. I get the same amount of attacks as any other medium BAB class, and I get more with TWF. I don't generally go past ITWF because I don't see that 3rd extra attack hitting. If the campaign does not use skills, which is the only way you think a rogue can contribute, then it is mostly a combat based campaign meaning I don't have to worry about intelligence too much so that is just more points for strength.</blockquote>

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